Help! Need someone who knows more about North American geography than I do!

[sparkindarkness]

As mentioned here: http://sparkindarkness.livejournal.com/204537.html I am running a werewolf game. Because I prefer to stick mostly to game canon and because the game requires the interaction of many many tribes it is to be set in the Americas (European werewolf tribes tend to have their own established territory and multi-tribal septs are rare or limited to maybe 3 tribes. It‘s also easier to shoot them there).

The things is I don't know exactly where to situate it. I want to keep it as close to the real world as possible (makes for less invention and more interesting research - in my last campaign they went Yuma, Arizona to Miami to Townsville, Queensland and I had lots of fun researching them all) but I am willing to tweak things (turn a moderate city into a NYC sized metropolis, for example). But I need somewhere to start.

So, what do I need?

A city moderately close to forested wilderness “close” can be “within 2-3 days solid travel” but more than a week would be pushing it. The wilderness has to be predominantly woodland.

Temperate/cold climate Snows in winter. Has pine trees. That kind of thing. No deserts, palm trees, calypso dancers.

Not somewhere already heavily established in White Wolf’s canon I like the canon, I use it a lot and don’t want to clash with it too badly since I may want to use it. So NOT: NYC, New York State, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Chicago

A Camarilla City So nowhere that is established as Sabbat - so NOT Toronto (rest of Canada’s fine, I never bought the idea of all of Canada being a Sabbat holding - it made NO sense) Detroit, Miami, Mexico

Bonus points
Not essentials but they’d be nice bonuses if possible:

Native wolf population
Wilderness is actually a National Park or similarly legally protected
The city has a history (not necessarily current presence) of organised crime ties


All suggestions gratefully appreciated!


(ETA: I'm going to do brief research on each suggestion and probably post another post on detailed pros and cons of each :))

Comments

*howls*

[mrmeval.livejournal.com]

What about the midwest? I know Indianapolis and the surrounding area reasonably well.

It meets the climate conditions.

There is forest *in* the city limits and farm fields and ... cows. And I think I'd be safe to say I could walk a hundred miles and be under trees the whole way.

And nearby is...
http://www.allsands.com/travel/places/wolfpark_yyn_gn.htm
"For a spine-tingling experience the kids won't soon forget, take in a wolf howl. The Wolf Park, twenty minutes north of Lafayette, Indiana, is operated by the non-profit North American Wildlife Park Foundation, dedicated to public education about wolves. Considered one of the most extensive wolf research facilities in the world, the park was founded in 1972, by German native Dr. Erich Klinghammer, a zoo consultant and expert on dog and wolf behavior."

Re: *howls*

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Interesting - this looks promising.

How far is this Morgan-Monroe National forest? I have trouble judging American map distance. (Oh and while I'm looking at the map - how does anything that far EAST get called the mid-WEST? And American cities are amusing to look at on a map - it's all a grid! Bet there's not a single round about in it)

There seems to be a decent amount of park land in the city to say the least and the sattellite image of google maps shows lotsa greenerie that suggests lots of forest. Good population sized and a diverse economy so i can throw just about any business there.

6,000 immigrants from Yugoslavia is good for the Shadow Lord connection. And a zoo is also a bonus. I can see a lot of things here the Children of Gaia would have a hand in (like the Children's museum)

[janetmiles.livejournal.com]

Maryville, Tennessee, is 25 miles from the Great Smoky Mountains National Park, which has been reintroducing the native red wolf. The park does have pine trees, along with hemlock, red spruce and yellow buckeye among others (according to one account, there are more species of trees in the Park than in all of Northern Europe). It used to snow regularly in winter, but hasn't much lately.

I don't know about organizes crime as such, but we do have a long history of moonshiners and bootleggers (cf. "Thunder Road," which references several locations in nearby Knoxville).

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

I can see some huge benefits historically to here - the history of the city nicely reflects the European Silver Fangs seizing the caern from the Native American Croatan. The abolitionist movement also nicely reflects the Child of Gaia presence

I think I'd have to beef up the population considerably, since it is small (I'd also have to mix up the diversity a fair whack to fit the story, but I've done this and the like to other cities. My main worry is the urban werewolves of my story would be attracted by business or technology),

It is extremely close to a national park. With trees :) The history of the place is also wonderful for the Sept (centre of the abolitionist movement, former fort against Native American attacks)

I've looked at some pictures though and that's some beautiful forrested terrain. Truly stunning

Ah that's good - we have a semi-organised crime ring which i can say had hidden underpinning

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

http://www.fws.gov/midwest/WOLF/population/range.htm

There's your choices for finding wolves in the wild. Not so great. There aren't any near any major cities, really.

Salt Lake isn't too far from the Idaho/Montana population though, and the Wasatch Front is full of forested mountain wilderness. (It's drier than many forests, and the undergrowth is less lush, but up in the mountains it's not desert anymore, there is snow and pine trees and such. I've been camping up there several times.) And I used to live near there, so I could answer questions about it. But organized crime and Salt Lake City are... about as far from each other as possible, really. *grins* Then again, SLC has a big punk/goth scene, which is also the last thing you'd expect, so... *shrug*

If you weren't ruling out Chicago, that'd be perfect. Seattle is possible, it's REALLY good on the forest/wilderness front, but not so good on the wolves, and I personally have only been there twice.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Aie, that's a narrow range. Maybe I can just randomly drop them in any wilderness/national park area (a world with werewolves is likely to preserve its wolf population more. Still i had hoped they were more widespread than that

Salt Lake City... well first of all WOW that's a lot of national forest and parkland around that city on all sides. That's great for the Chronicle - I can see the successful urban werewolves fighting to have every foot of wilderness protected.

It's a little smaller than I imagined (I always thought Salt Lake City would be much bigger than that) but not too small that if I increase it's population I'd be drastically changing the city

I think i'd also welcome the chance to challenge stereotypes with Salt Lake City - because it IS somewhere my players will have heard of and they're likely to have some rather tired assumptions about the place - it'd be fun to upset a few of them

Aye - I think that's why White Wolf already has huge source books out about Chicago - because it is rather perfect.

I'll put Seattle on my ding list

[etumukutenyak.livejournal.com]

Most of Oregon, pretty much all of Idaho, and so on along the border with Canada -- try a look at the National Park Service website.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Oregan may be a little to the west of where I want to be - but Canadian border and midwest are looking promising

Ah, now there's a useful link :)

[stormcat.livejournal.com]

You want the Pacific Northwest -- Washington (state), Oregon, etc. Fits perfectly. Far northern California might work as well, though don't quote me on that.

Past that, grab Google Maps and find a decent-looking town near Seattle or something (just to give you a city name to grab on to.)

West Virginia/western Virginia (Roanoke, VA etc) might work as well, though not so sure of the wolf population. I know damn well they have cougar, though.

Hmm... Maine, Vermont, upstate New York, etc -- basically the upper states on the East Coast -- might work, though not sure about the wolf thing. Might also be a tad close to New York City.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

I'm trying to avoid California because it's a huge place of kerfuffule in the Canon - but Oregon and Washington are promising but a little far west. I may have to ping Seattle again :)

Cougar - now that might be useful to throw in some nice bastet possibilities. Werekitties :). I'll have to put Roanoke on my check list

I don't mind a state CLOSE to NYC and New England would be a bonus - but the whole area looks rather built up. I look for National Parks in the area and keep running into the Adriondack - but I'm trying to avoid New York STATE not just NYC because White Wolf has produced a lot of canon for it. Maine doesn't seem to have much of anything in it - map just shows a lot of empty space. Wilderness perhaps? But lacks any cities of any real size. Vermont also seems to lack national parks and cities

WOLVES in Indiana

[mrmeval.livejournal.com]

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v251/LupineDream/Wolves%20in%20Indiana/

Re: WOLVES in Indiana

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Wolves! Now I need to remember my tribe descriptions and see what markings they seem to meet up with - well Uktena, no surprises there :)

[harald387.livejournal.com]

Ottawa.

Meets all your criteria except the natural wolf population; the nearest wilderness is just a few hours by car (and serious 'if you get lost you might not get back' wilderness no more than a day), little's been said about it in canon, very much snows in winter, significant presence from the Hell's Angels and other criminal gangs.

And, as a bonus, at least three people on your friendslist can answer questions about the city.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

I second this!

First, harald387 exaggerates. "A few hours" by car? Fuck that - I own a car and he doesn't, so I know the truth. I can get myself hopelessly lost and die of exposure if my car breaks down in *25 minutes*.

I live in a suburb, but if I need to cross the whole city and get lost and die on the *far side* of it, I can do that in an hour and a half. Three hours, in rush hour.

That being said:

A city moderately close to forested wilderness “close” can be "within 2-3 days solid travel" but more than a week would be pushing it. The wilderness has to be predominantly woodland.

1.4 million people in the surrounding area, MASSIVE greenbelt, and you can hit Trackless Wilderness *in hours*, fuck days. Given three days, you can get to fucking Hudson's Bay, Labrador, or Manitoba, and nobody lives there.

Temperate/cold climate Snows in winter. Has pine trees. That kind of thing. No deserts, palm trees, calypso dancers.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA second-coldest capital city on Earth. Warmer than Ulan Bator. Colder than Moscow.

Not somewhere already heavily established in White Wolf’s canon I like the canon, I use it a lot and don’t want to clash with it too badly since I may want to use it. So NOT: NYC, New York State, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Chicago

There's a funny story there, but the short version is that, thanks to the personal effort of a *single* local gamer, Ottawa By Night was shelved and the sole canonical mention of the city is "Prince Kranston is secretive, thought to be a Nosferatu, and rules the city with an iron hand inside a velvet glove. The city is unassailably Camarilla."

A Camarilla City So nowhere that is established as Sabbat - so NOT Toronto (rest of Canada’s fine, I never bought the idea of all of Canada being a Sabbat holding - it made NO sense) Detroit, Miami, Mexico

Fucking Toronto. Always fucking it up for everyone else. Seriously, the idea that *Toronto* was Sabbat was incredibly, absurdly stupid. Baltimore gets more murders *after midnight on New Years* than Toronto gets in a year. And Montreal By Night is the worst book ever produced by White Wolf, far eclipsing Dirty Little Secrets.

Native wolf population

As much as you're going to get in North America, Ottawa has it within a day's travel.

Wilderness is actually a National Park or similarly legally protected

Start with Algonquin Provincial Park - it's *almost 8,000* square km, and it's *five minutes drive* from downtown Ottawa... and then work out from there. We're at the border of the Canadian Shield - there is NOTHING there.

The city has a history (not necessarily current presence) of organised crime ties

Capital city of one of the G8. HOLY CRAP CRIMINALS.

You're not going to get a lot of Giovanni, but that's good because there are absolutely no worthwhile Giovanni concepts that aren't better done as Brujah or Ventrue (mobster) or Tremere (necromancer). And, even with that, there's still a massive Little Italy.

But yeah. Ottawa.

[baranduyn.livejournal.com]

Seattle, Washington? Portland, Oregon? Bangor, Maine?

Native wolf population...forget about it. Very few wild wolves left in the United States. A dozen or so years ago Yellowstone National Park was repopulated. Then some tourist saw a wolf and they were all killed. Also, there was poaching. BASTARDS.

So...Canada. Out west, I should think. British Columbia, maybe.

I'm going to go huff my cooling-off bread now.

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

Uh. WTF are you talking about? "At the end of 2007, at least 171 wolves in 11 packs and various groups occupied Yellowstone National Park." Right off the official Yellowstone website. http://www.nps.gov/yell/naturescience/wolves.htm

The reintroduction in 1995 was very successful, and they were not "all killed" because some tourist saw one. Seeing a wolf is what half the tourists who go to the park want to do, I was very sad myself that I never saw one when I was there. (Saw nearly everything else!) And I've never heard anything at all about poaching in the park! I went looking and could only find one story about poaching in the area at all, and that was outside the park boundaries. http://www.jhguide.com/article.php?art_id=3079

[polarbee.livejournal.com]

Anchorage, Alaska meets all of that criteria. Pretty much every that has to do with the fishing industry is owned by the Yakuza. (I am not kidding here.)
So there's your organised crime tie. (Husband's uncle was actually beat up for going to one of the last non-clan canneries a few decades ago.)
And wolves? Please. ;)

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Organised crime in fishing.... now that is novel :)

I could have them hunt down evil Wyrm-tainted VP-wannabes! :P

It's verrrry far west and veeeeryyy far north that may be a problem. How diverse is Anchorage's economy?

[sabine791110.livejournal.com]

Madison, Wisconsin! Or maybe Green Bay. But Madison is the better choice BY FAR. :-) We got over 100 inches of snow last year, there are foresty nature areas around, and it's a lot of fun. I'm not sure about natural wolf population, though.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

It has a wonderful history of protest that would go well with the children of gaia presence. It's nice and east. It's population is a little lower than I hoped but its status as a state capital will give it the business, vampiric and werewolf ooooomph for the game

Is it heavily forested? I'm looking at google map and I see lots of patches of green - but they're small and seperated - I need rolling acres of undisturbed treeeeees. Are these green patches forests or just parks?

Definitely a good potential city

[ciara-belle.livejournal.com]

I'd say somewhere in Alaska or in the Pacific Northwest. Maybe a smaller city near Seattle?

You could always use Forks, Washington, but they already have werewolves. ;D

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Aye they all look promising, sadly I really need something further east but Seattle keeps pinging the radar

[makarov.livejournal.com]

well, Tomah,Wi isn't too far from the Neceedah national wildlife refuge
neither is La Crosse, Wi

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Nice location. It seems to be nicely equidistant between several state parks (what IS a state park anyway? Are we talking formal gardens or pristine wilderness without federal recognition? Kind of like a state level National Park?)

But Tomah has a population of less than 10,000 - I'd class that as more of a town than a city.

La Crosse is more promising having a much larger (though still smaller than I'd prefer) population. But I cannot for the life of me find this Neceedah National Wildlife refuge. lots of state parks but no wildlife refuges

[blackironcrown.livejournal.com]

I'd actually recommend my home city of Atlanta.
- Surrounded by forest - the whole of Georgia is actually the Piedmont Forest down to the sandier marshlands and the whole thing gets more and more forested as you get to Alabama and further on. It's heavily pined.
- Directly to the north of Atlanta you have the North Georgia Mountains, part of the Appalachians. That is STILL the boonies. Mountain people, small cities that stand alone in the wilderness. Think Deliverance.
- Atlanta was traditionally Camarilla held, with Sabbat incursions from time to time.
- The climate is tricky. Atlanta has milder cold weather in the winter, but it's snowing in the mountains. Lots of ice. Then it turns fiercely hot and humid in the summer, like it was FL.
- Wolves were ONCE in those mountains, I think.
- Several national parks in the North GA Mountains.
- Atlanta DOES have ties to organized crime. Good ol' boy systems, racketeering, bootleg runners, the Dixie Mafia, several African-American national gangs, the Mexican Mafia - tons o' stuff.

[lilisonna.livejournal.com]

But Atlanta's pretty established.

[(Anonymous)]

The Pacific Northwest (Seattle or Portland) are both good. There's a temperate rainforest up there, and quite a lot of Nature Parks, but also a lot of land used for commercial timber farming, which is to say, you plant the trees and then kind of ignore the land for a decade. Not sure about wild wolf populations, though.

Um. For snow in winter/pine tree you're going to want to move farther North into Canada or find somewhere in the Rockies. Or both. Or Yellowstone National Park, which fits the bill fairly well. Yellowstone isn't just pine forests though, because of the geologic activity. But wolves were reintroduced back there a few decades ago and they do fairly well.

I'm not sure about a city with organized crime that hasn't been ruled out already. St. Louis has, in recent years, gone through such a recession that it is now the most violent city in America, but I don't think it's very organized crime.

Sorry I can't be more help, but have lots o' fun tormenting your players.

[tanarill.livejournal.com]

Sorry, that was me. Inactivity logout.

[gwailowrite.livejournal.com]

Northern Kentucky has Cincinnati, Ohio across the river and lots of land (I wouldn't call it a forest, but there is definitely places where the trees go on for miles. Go southern around Lousiville or way south Paducah. Massive winters. Horse country. Kentucky bluegrass. Some state parks out there (Mammoth Cave). Go further east and closer to Tennessee and you start headin into serious Appalachia.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Tree go on for miles... but not a forest hmm Explain what these foresty things are? :P

I need pristine acresd of unbroken forestry for preference -as if you had some gorgeous wilderness fiull of wolves that will EAT YOU IF YOUR HURT THE TREES!

I thought of that areas as being much more grassy grassy plains than forests

Ah, Appalachia is off the radar - 'tis Fianna territory and I don't have many Fianna

[chesh.livejournal.com]

I would say the Twin Cities might work. Lots of varied forested areas around - there's national park that runs next to the Mississippi River almost all through the metro area, and that connects with actual national forest on one side of the city. There are mixed deciduous/conifer forests within a day or two walking distance, lots of prairie, and oak savannah.

There has been some work on reintroducing wolves, though lots of farmers are getting up in arms about it, just like everywhere else.

The city has a long history of mob ties - quite a lot of the caves facing the river were used as mob hideouts during the Prohibition, and a couple of them have been turned into honest clubs.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Twin Cities? Is that Minneapolis/St. Paul?

It's certainly big enough. It has a good history of liberal causes the Children would champion - native rights, equal rights, worker's rights. It has resources, economy and everyting up the wazooo.

The only reservation I have is that the forested area looks very... tame? More beautiful touristy area than actually wild. I can see the caern being interrupted by joggers and cyclists and sight see-ers :)

[brownkitty.livejournal.com]

Define "ties to organized crime" please. Would the cattleman/sheepherder conflicts count? How about anything related to stealing land from "red Injuns", anything related to gold rushes, any war profiteering from the Civil or Revolutionary Wars, or anything related to roving bandit gangs such as those headed by Jesse James or Billy the Kid?

Are you counting coyotes as wolves?

Going from your description, first impression is Seattle, WA and second impression is Butte, MT.

If you want snow, Atlanta doesn't get much. Not frequently and not inch-wise. It does get ice in the winter.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Well here's what I envisage:
One of the tribes of Werewolves in the city that is central to the plot is the Glass Walkers. The Glass Walkers in my city have 2 factions. One is new (corporations and computers) the other is old school (crime gangs and cosa nostra). Any kind of organised crime link is preferable but I'd prefer it to be low key (anything on a level of Chicago's crime links would be vampire run not werewolve, because the leeches are better at it) and doesn't have to be a stereotypical "Don Bertolli is wounded by your disrespect" sense, but preferably something more white collar OR more organised than just warring gangs.

Nope - werecoyotes (Nuwisha) are a species unto themselves in white wolf :)

Seattle raises again! I don't even know what MT stands for... Massachussettes?

[semiotic-pirate.livejournal.com]

Billings, Montana Wiki
Denver or Boulder, Colorado Wiki

I prefer the Montana location, personally.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

I am plagued by the west having so many perfect locations - but I think I really need something more eastern

(Though the wiki links are always helpful)

[a-roar-a.livejournal.com]

Portland, OR fits most of your criteria plus using the shanghai tunnels in a campaign seems like it could be all sorts of fun. Then again I am biased, as I love Portland dearly. ;op

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Ahhh the west coast! It curses me with its perffection

[thisdaydreamer.livejournal.com]

Washington DC is a few hours away from Shenandoah National Park, and much of central Virginia is rural. Not much snow, but there's generally some every year. Charlottesville and Richmond in Virginia might also work, although the former doesn't have much in the way of organized crime.

Much of the southwest corner of Virginia is very rural, and all wilderness in this part of the country is woodland.

I can tell you pretty much anything you need to know about Charlottesville, especially. *grin*

Note - my icon is a picture taken near Washington DC.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

I never pictured there being any wilderness near DC... It would have made a nice options - but I think i want to avoid the actual capital. I want the local vampires to be powerful - but the Glass Walkers would have a hard job having any influence at all in DC

Charlotte and Richmond were what I considered, but they were badly involved in the canon white wolf war up and down the east coast

[gnarlycranium.livejournal.com]

It doesn't exactly snow there, but... Seattle? I mean, you don't GET any more National Park/wilderness(biggest wilderness area in the US)local wolves/pine trees than that.

And as for organized crime? Boy howdy. Granted a ton of it is Chinese, but Seattle was an underworld paradise. Still has the highest per-capita rate of unexplained disappearances in the country.


.....Actually, I was up there myself researching a potential WW book a number of years ago, before the primary author got ganked to military duty in Afghanistan.

[gnarlycranium.livejournal.com]

Or, I think it snows in Vancouver BC, which is a bit farther north.

[cuglas.livejournal.com]

Minneapolis is 5 hours from the Canadian border and huge woods. Minnesota has wolves. They even stray as far south as Minneapolis sometimes.

St. Louis is 2 hours from the Shawnee National Forest and 5 hours from the Ozark Mountains. Lots of woods in the Ozarks. There aren't wolves in Missouri, but there are bears and mountains lions, so even if we had wolves, a lot of wolf activity would initially get passed off as a bear or a mountain lion.

Plus St. Louis has the Wild Canid Survival Center for breeding captive red wolves and grey wolves.