Help! Need someone who knows more about North American geography than I do!

[sparkindarkness]

As mentioned here: http://sparkindarkness.livejournal.com/204537.html I am running a werewolf game. Because I prefer to stick mostly to game canon and because the game requires the interaction of many many tribes it is to be set in the Americas (European werewolf tribes tend to have their own established territory and multi-tribal septs are rare or limited to maybe 3 tribes. It‘s also easier to shoot them there).

The things is I don't know exactly where to situate it. I want to keep it as close to the real world as possible (makes for less invention and more interesting research - in my last campaign they went Yuma, Arizona to Miami to Townsville, Queensland and I had lots of fun researching them all) but I am willing to tweak things (turn a moderate city into a NYC sized metropolis, for example). But I need somewhere to start.

So, what do I need?

A city moderately close to forested wilderness “close” can be “within 2-3 days solid travel” but more than a week would be pushing it. The wilderness has to be predominantly woodland.

Temperate/cold climate Snows in winter. Has pine trees. That kind of thing. No deserts, palm trees, calypso dancers.

Not somewhere already heavily established in White Wolf’s canon I like the canon, I use it a lot and don’t want to clash with it too badly since I may want to use it. So NOT: NYC, New York State, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Chicago

A Camarilla City So nowhere that is established as Sabbat - so NOT Toronto (rest of Canada’s fine, I never bought the idea of all of Canada being a Sabbat holding - it made NO sense) Detroit, Miami, Mexico

Bonus points
Not essentials but they’d be nice bonuses if possible:

Native wolf population
Wilderness is actually a National Park or similarly legally protected
The city has a history (not necessarily current presence) of organised crime ties


All suggestions gratefully appreciated!


(ETA: I'm going to do brief research on each suggestion and probably post another post on detailed pros and cons of each :))

Comments

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

I second this!

First, harald387 exaggerates. "A few hours" by car? Fuck that - I own a car and he doesn't, so I know the truth. I can get myself hopelessly lost and die of exposure if my car breaks down in *25 minutes*.

I live in a suburb, but if I need to cross the whole city and get lost and die on the *far side* of it, I can do that in an hour and a half. Three hours, in rush hour.

That being said:

A city moderately close to forested wilderness “close” can be "within 2-3 days solid travel" but more than a week would be pushing it. The wilderness has to be predominantly woodland.

1.4 million people in the surrounding area, MASSIVE greenbelt, and you can hit Trackless Wilderness *in hours*, fuck days. Given three days, you can get to fucking Hudson's Bay, Labrador, or Manitoba, and nobody lives there.

Temperate/cold climate Snows in winter. Has pine trees. That kind of thing. No deserts, palm trees, calypso dancers.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA second-coldest capital city on Earth. Warmer than Ulan Bator. Colder than Moscow.

Not somewhere already heavily established in White Wolf’s canon I like the canon, I use it a lot and don’t want to clash with it too badly since I may want to use it. So NOT: NYC, New York State, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Chicago

There's a funny story there, but the short version is that, thanks to the personal effort of a *single* local gamer, Ottawa By Night was shelved and the sole canonical mention of the city is "Prince Kranston is secretive, thought to be a Nosferatu, and rules the city with an iron hand inside a velvet glove. The city is unassailably Camarilla."

A Camarilla City So nowhere that is established as Sabbat - so NOT Toronto (rest of Canada’s fine, I never bought the idea of all of Canada being a Sabbat holding - it made NO sense) Detroit, Miami, Mexico

Fucking Toronto. Always fucking it up for everyone else. Seriously, the idea that *Toronto* was Sabbat was incredibly, absurdly stupid. Baltimore gets more murders *after midnight on New Years* than Toronto gets in a year. And Montreal By Night is the worst book ever produced by White Wolf, far eclipsing Dirty Little Secrets.

Native wolf population

As much as you're going to get in North America, Ottawa has it within a day's travel.

Wilderness is actually a National Park or similarly legally protected

Start with Algonquin Provincial Park - it's *almost 8,000* square km, and it's *five minutes drive* from downtown Ottawa... and then work out from there. We're at the border of the Canadian Shield - there is NOTHING there.

The city has a history (not necessarily current presence) of organised crime ties

Capital city of one of the G8. HOLY CRAP CRIMINALS.

You're not going to get a lot of Giovanni, but that's good because there are absolutely no worthwhile Giovanni concepts that aren't better done as Brujah or Ventrue (mobster) or Tremere (necromancer). And, even with that, there's still a massive Little Italy.

But yeah. Ottawa.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

PS: Advantage: Both you and your players all understand the legal system. Just substitute "Governor General" any time you want "The Queen"

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

I can get myself hopelessly lost and die of exposure if my car breaks down in *25 minutes*.

*crosses off another place from my "holiday list" The wilderness is hella impressive though - extremely close for a capital

Temperate, aye - not necessarily frozen wasteland of DEATH *shudder* but it works for the climate. Ottawa's actually bigger than I expected (the only Canadians I have met in the flesh have bitched about Ottawa being the capital)

Hmmm a Nosferatu Prince? I can live with that. I want to know that story though - what did he do? And why didn't he do it to the abomination of Toronto by Night? And MOntreal. Kontreal by night should have been burned. Isn't that the one with a PANDER Bishop?

It's just INSANE. Sabbat cities and territories are typified by corruption and huge crime rates. The Sabbt treats humanity like cattle and often goes on the rampage in the poor, beleaguered cities they dominate. And they make CANADA a Sabbat stronghold?! I can see them trying to present more diversity in the Sabbt - but even if you get Sabbat elders who are more cerebral, political et al, the majority of Sabbat packs are still young, crazed shovel heads. It's ridiculous - try to break out of the idea that Sabbat are all mindless killers, sure, but you could do that far better in Spain and Italy than in Canada. It just boggles the mind.

Naturally there is the crime and the business needed. Actually, I don't want organised crime on a HUGE level - because most of my dabblers in the crime world will be Glass Walkers (I can play up the Little Italy side). If they had a hugely established organised crime presence then my poor little Glass Walkers would have been badly mauled and kicked out by Brujah, Ventrue and Giovanni long since (my understanding of it anyway. No matter what werewolves can pull, when it comes to mortal ogranisations Vampires are just BETTER at it).

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

Ottawa is awesome. It's the Middle Of Nowhere (tm) that you can get lost in that's dangerous.

Temperate, aye - not necessarily frozen wasteland of DEATH *shudder* but it works for the climate. Ottawa's actually bigger than I expected (the only Canadians I have met in the flesh have bitched about Ottawa being the capital)

Hey, my raspberries are *great* in my back yard.

But yeah. second-coldest capital city on the planet, largest temperature differential on the planet (+35 to -35, celcius, in an average year)

I want to know that story though - what did he do?

Well, the short version is this: WW planned an Ottawa By Night supplement based on this player's 100+ person LARP, up until he informed them outright that it simply *could not* go through unless they established his personal 4th generation Gangrel with maxed out Disciplines in EVERYTHING as a canonical character. At which point, the people looking at it told him to go away, and there was one-sided Drama on his part, and then there was Montreal By Night.

Montreal by night should have been burned. Isn't that the one with a PANDER Bishop?

I try to do my best to ignore idiocy, whether it's officially printed or not.

Speaking of which....

but even if you get Sabbat elders who are more cerebral, political et al, the majority of Sabbat packs are still young, crazed shovel heads. It's ridiculous - try to break out of the idea that Sabbat are all mindless killers, sure, but you could do that far better in Spain and Italy than in Canada. It just boggles the mind.

Uh, yeah. Canada as Sabbat territory is COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE, even if you set aside the concept of "sabbat territory" as completely on it's own, which it is.

The nearest place which even *hope* to qualify are Detroit, Baltimore, and New York City.

. No matter what werewolves can pull, when it comes to mortal ogranisations Vampires are just BETTER at it)

You underSTAND.

The writers of the Old World Of Darkness were idiots who nothing about the world outside the USA.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Fun, we can freeze vampires solid!

Oh gods, that's one of the problems I've had with LARPS - the people who run them rarely seem able to control the excesses of the munchkins who play it. I hope you punished hum for Montreal By Night?

Canada as Sabbat territory is COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE,

Hell, I'd be all behind showing the Sabbat as more than a pack of blood crazed psychopaths. I can fully credit the opportunity to use a territory to emphasise the original GOALS and the diverse philosophies of the Sabbat - freedom, equality, maybe some noddist lore and the strong Catholic influence rather than just having them as random bloodthirsty loonies.

But CANADA is not the setting for that.

The whole POINT of the Sabbat in the Americas is that the Camarilla smacked them HARD. They had a few strongholds (Detroit, NYC, Miami) and anything south of the border was their's but in general the Sabbat was characterised as more nomadic packs. This IS the Sabbat at its most animalistic and bloodthirsty because it is at its most UNSTABLE - because it is constantly at war with the Camarilla. (and, let's face it, if the Sabbat DID hold Canada then how long would it take the more mortally attuned, aware and skilled Camarailla to take it back? Especially in a land where you can't cover up the vast violence which is the Sabbat's weapon)

If you want to EXPLORE the Sabbat's variety you need somewhere where they are STABLE. Like Mexico (alright, a bit bloodthirsty and animalistic still) but what about Spain or Italy. You can't tell me that the Sabbat Archbishop expounding philosophy and tactics wouldn't be better with Moncada in Madrid than in Canada. Or the noddist lore specialist wouldn't be great in some monastary in Ragusa or following the plots of the antedeluvians in a villa in Brindisi or even debating freedom and oppression in Poland or the Ukraine - I mean, the whole collapse of the eastern bloc should have opened up untold numbers of source books on Sabbat territories torn by political debates and symposia!

Hells you can open the door to a huge POLITICAL Sabbat game as Sabbat territories find themselves controlled by the Camarilla dominated EU *sigh* so much wasted potential while they focused on making Canada - which is almost the epitome of Camarilla territory - into some freaky Sabbat stronghold

. No matter what werewolves can pull, when it comes to mortal ogranisations Vampires are just BETTER at it)

You underSTAND.

Well it just seems so obvious to me! I mean, you can take a werewolf with all the gifts of a rank 6 EVERYTHING and all his shiny fetishes and he's still going to get his arse handed to him by a Ventrue deceased for the last 20 years in the social arena. Presence + potence + blood bond +ghoul lackies (ghouls vs kinfolk = dead kin). It's just WAY better than anything the werewolves have in their arsenal. Added in that the werewolves have fewer numbers, less experience, the curse, AND they have an overarching agenda (the Wyrm) that will sap their resources and attention and lower numbers/less able to replace numbers.

And that's if you assume it's werewolf vs standard vampire. If you consider that if the Glass Walkers ever did manage to leverage some major influence in a city some elder who has been playing this game for decades if not CENTURIES is going to turn round and be all "does Vlad have to bankrupt a bitch?"

This is why I've always been quite fond of mixing the canons because I've always had an idea of where each group fits in hierarchies. And when it comes to urban power the Garou (of ANY tribe) are waaaaay at the bottom.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

It's just WAY better than anything the werewolves have in their arsenal.

Werewolf PCs have a couple of *really* killer tricks up their sleeves, unfortunately. It doesn't matter if the ghouls murder all the Kinfolk - they can't stop a werewolf with Sense Wyrm and Sense Of The Prey from following the master home, walking *right through* all his defenses without even noticing them by virtue of stepping sideways, and popping out instantly to smash the vampire with all kinds of incredible unsoakable aggravated damage before the vampire gets to throw Majesty or Entrancement or Dread Gaze.

Basically, if it comes to outright war, vampires can make werewolf kinfolk extinct, and they can kill all the wolves, but they have great trouble (mechanically) killing the werewolves themselves if the werewolves think like PCs, and, because of being written second and written badly, there are a LOT of Werewolf things that vampires simply cannot deal with in time - the werewolves might lose the war, but they win the battles by *killing the vampires dead* in a way that, mechanically, the vampires simply can't deal with. Every vampire the werewolves know about is either a Tremere who has later-written anti-werewolf thaum, or is ash, very fast.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

But that';s the point - werewolves are killing machines of doom against anything but the most ancient and powerful of vampires - but on any battlefield that isn't actually a physical confrontation (like mortal influence) they fail pretty badly

Which is why i alwasy told my vampire players "don't fuck with the werewolves. They CAN kill you" of course after loooong sessions of playing the Gangrel with a fuckton of experience declared "like hell they can" which was kind of hard to argue but it was generally the case