Awkward conversation mark 2
Mar. 25th, 2009 02:29 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
sparkindarknessAs said here I was looking at the irrational and deeply silly issues some G&L people have towards our B&T brothers and sisters. Especially since it’s so damned STUPID to throw rocks at our natural allies and how it’s about time we got over this shit, closed ranks against those most unpleasant people who want us oppressed, repressed or just plain dead.
So let’s have an awkward conversation. Again, like the bisexual post, I’m probably going to get some stuff wrong, I’m probably going to accidentally offend people. I’ll try not to but if I do, I apologise in advance. Please slap me if I'm seriously off the rails and I'll do my utmost to correct it
Transexuals
The issues
Naturally first of all we have bigotry. I say this again - just because you are part of an oppressed group doesn’t mean you’re immune to being a bigoted arsehole. However we know that so moving on.
I think the main issue (beyond your bog-standard transphobia) is, again, a reaction to homophobia - lashing out but at a grossly inappropriate target.
Something that really bugs me as a gay man and probably every other gay person the world over. Some people treat me like a woman. Sooner or later nearly every gay person will be treated as someone of the opposite gender. Whether it’s assumptions, jokes, too-personal questions - gay men are considered sissy, sensitive, weak, feminine, female and often are assumed to want to be women, to be emulating women or trying to be women. This is even true in gay fiction where often one partner in a gay relationship is heavily feminised (and I KNOW you’re all tired of me ranting on that score :P). Similarly for lesbians they are considered butch, masculine etc etc.
In short, I have to, with tiring regularity, say that no, I’m not a woman, no I don’t want to be a woman, no I’m not trying to be a woman. I have to explain to the ignorant (“Which one of you is the woman in the relationship?”) and grit my teeth and deal with the insulting (“You’ve left your handbage behind, Tracy.”)
And after all this tiring and annoying and, yes, hurt, time spent saying “damn it I’m not a woman in a man’s body.” we then have a transsexual saying “I am a woman in a man’s body.” And there’s a foot stomp because you’re confusing the hetero-normative people and they’re going to make more assumptions about me *stomp feet, spit dummie out, throw all toys out of the pram.*
The next and, I think, lesser issue is the idea that transsexuals don’t belong under the GBLT umbrella. Homosexuality and bisexuality are about sexuality - who we’re attracted to and not while transgender is about gender identity. The argument is, the two are not the same so why are we under the same umbrella?
And extending from that there’s a sense some have that trannsexuals are riding on our coattails so to speak. Basically, while there are no end of bigots who are freaked by us gay folk, there are likely more and more severely freaked by the transsexual people. Is associating with transsexuals making homosexuals look even worse in the eyes of your die hard bigot? Is linking acceptance with homosexuality with acceptance of transsexuality making the fight more difficult or costly?
And why it’s so very very wrong
So some idiots give us shit about our gender identity? So they make unwarranted assumptions about us? So they make their damn idiot jokes? They insult and attack us? Since when was any of this the transsexual’s fault? It doesn’t matter if gender identity is a club the bigots love to smack us with - in the end they have plenty of other clubs and they’d use them if there were no transsexuals or a billion transsexuals. Is it depressing, hurtful and just plain annoying that we have to put up with this shit? Course it is - but place the blame where it is DESERVED and not on our fellow victims.
Are transsexuals part of the same umbrella as GBLs? Yes - if you look at the issue with anything but the most NARROW of definitions. In the end, people give us shit - all of us shit - because of narrowly defined gender roles and religious prohibition. If you look at the usual suspects who give GBLT folk (ALL of us) shit then it’s the same damn people the vast majority of the time. I don’t know of any group that says “I’m fine with trans people but you homos have got to go.” And while there are a few that go the other way, the chances are if someone is rapidly furious about transsexuals then gay people are not top of their fanlist either. The same arguments used against transsexuals (it’s not natural/what my deity intended blah blah blah) are the same ignorant and stupid arguments that are used against gay folks.
We want the same things - (equality, respect, not to be screwed over more than your average person is). We have the same principles (proud of who we are, unwillingness to hide, to be who we know we are rather than what society demands we be) We have the same enemies. They use the same language to attack us. We’re on the same side. We’re fighting the same fight and there most certainly should be a T in the GBLT movement.
Which brings us to the idea of transsexuals latching onto, diluting or dragging down the gay rights movement (or homosexual agenda if you want to freak out the crazies. And you know you do. C’mon, it’s fun.). Well again, same fight, same issues, same enemy. It’s not diluting resources when we’re saying the same thing, hitting the same targets and struggling against the same opposition. You don’t dilute or misdirect a movement by adding more people moving in the same direction.
And lastly - would it be easier if gay people dumped the transsexuals and just campaigned for homosexuals? I don’t know, probably not I think (same sissues, same enemies etc etc). It’s a moot point anyway - I mean would it be easier for lesbians to gain more acceptance if they dropped us gay men? (Personally i don’t buy that trope that lesbians get less shit than gay men, our sisters get waaay more than their share of shit - but you get the idea). Or how about we drop the drag queens? How about we drop everyone who isn’t middle class, reserved and fits gender stereotypes as utterly closely as possible? Or maybe every member of queerdom who doesn’t cower on their knees apologising to the bigots for being naughty sinful homos?
Because if you’re going to start dropping people because they may freak out the bigots slightly more than you do then it’s not going to end and we’ve LOST. If you’re going to play the “I’m a good homosexual, they’re the bad ones!” card them GTFO, tbh. Because you’re a bloody collaborator with the bigots and we don’t need it. You’re VALIDATING they’re hate. You’re encouraging it. You’re accepting it, you‘re saying it‘s reasonable, right, even good. And you need to cut that shit out RIGHT NOW!
Stand with your brother’s and sister’s together so we can get some justice, some respect, some tolerance, some acceptance and basic human dignity or get the hell away from us.
Sparky’s guide to not giving trans people shit
Again, just because the homophobes treat us like shit, doesn’t mean we’re excused treating transsexuals like shit. They’d treat us like shit anyway, it’s not the transsexual’s fault. Place the blame where it’s deserved
Don’t tell them their identity. Accept their own self-identification - arguing about their identity is as annoying or more as when straight people tell us we’re not really gay.
Don’t use pejorative terms. Not even in fun. Yes, I know you use gay slurs among gay folks and we CAN because that’s reclaiming. You’re not transsexual. You can’t reclaim those words. Don’t use tranny, Mister-sister or any of the other crap people have used. Not even if some transsexuals say you can. If you’re told a term is offensive, apologise and stop using it. Don’t argue.
Make our spaces friendly. We all know how utterly WONDERFUL it is to go into a gay club or gay society or even a gay pride parade and have that wonderful “AHHH” relax feeling knowing that this is our space and we’re safe to BE here. Hetero-normative society has made most of the world as unfriendly to transsexuals as it has for us. Let the transsexuals feels safe in our space. Let it be their space as well.
Include transsexual issues on our agenda. Give space and time to their issues. Make sure your GBLT movements give more than a passing nod to our T brothers and sisters. We’re in this together, let them be a part of it
Don’t accept prejudice shit from other GBLs just because they’re GBLs - call them on it. Grab the haddock and slap them hard.
Don’t do shit to them that annoy you when straights do it to us. Are you asking personal questions of a complete stranger? Are you making ridiculous assumptions? Are you applying stereotypes? Are you treating them as a walking avatar of transsexuality rather than a person? Are you making tasteless jokes? Well that shit annoys us so why do you think it wouldn’t annoy them?
So let’s have an awkward conversation. Again, like the bisexual post, I’m probably going to get some stuff wrong, I’m probably going to accidentally offend people. I’ll try not to but if I do, I apologise in advance. Please slap me if I'm seriously off the rails and I'll do my utmost to correct it
Transexuals
The issues
Naturally first of all we have bigotry. I say this again - just because you are part of an oppressed group doesn’t mean you’re immune to being a bigoted arsehole. However we know that so moving on.
I think the main issue (beyond your bog-standard transphobia) is, again, a reaction to homophobia - lashing out but at a grossly inappropriate target.
Something that really bugs me as a gay man and probably every other gay person the world over. Some people treat me like a woman. Sooner or later nearly every gay person will be treated as someone of the opposite gender. Whether it’s assumptions, jokes, too-personal questions - gay men are considered sissy, sensitive, weak, feminine, female and often are assumed to want to be women, to be emulating women or trying to be women. This is even true in gay fiction where often one partner in a gay relationship is heavily feminised (and I KNOW you’re all tired of me ranting on that score :P). Similarly for lesbians they are considered butch, masculine etc etc.
In short, I have to, with tiring regularity, say that no, I’m not a woman, no I don’t want to be a woman, no I’m not trying to be a woman. I have to explain to the ignorant (“Which one of you is the woman in the relationship?”) and grit my teeth and deal with the insulting (“You’ve left your handbage behind, Tracy.”)
And after all this tiring and annoying and, yes, hurt, time spent saying “damn it I’m not a woman in a man’s body.” we then have a transsexual saying “I am a woman in a man’s body.” And there’s a foot stomp because you’re confusing the hetero-normative people and they’re going to make more assumptions about me *stomp feet, spit dummie out, throw all toys out of the pram.*
The next and, I think, lesser issue is the idea that transsexuals don’t belong under the GBLT umbrella. Homosexuality and bisexuality are about sexuality - who we’re attracted to and not while transgender is about gender identity. The argument is, the two are not the same so why are we under the same umbrella?
And extending from that there’s a sense some have that trannsexuals are riding on our coattails so to speak. Basically, while there are no end of bigots who are freaked by us gay folk, there are likely more and more severely freaked by the transsexual people. Is associating with transsexuals making homosexuals look even worse in the eyes of your die hard bigot? Is linking acceptance with homosexuality with acceptance of transsexuality making the fight more difficult or costly?
And why it’s so very very wrong
So some idiots give us shit about our gender identity? So they make unwarranted assumptions about us? So they make their damn idiot jokes? They insult and attack us? Since when was any of this the transsexual’s fault? It doesn’t matter if gender identity is a club the bigots love to smack us with - in the end they have plenty of other clubs and they’d use them if there were no transsexuals or a billion transsexuals. Is it depressing, hurtful and just plain annoying that we have to put up with this shit? Course it is - but place the blame where it is DESERVED and not on our fellow victims.
Are transsexuals part of the same umbrella as GBLs? Yes - if you look at the issue with anything but the most NARROW of definitions. In the end, people give us shit - all of us shit - because of narrowly defined gender roles and religious prohibition. If you look at the usual suspects who give GBLT folk (ALL of us) shit then it’s the same damn people the vast majority of the time. I don’t know of any group that says “I’m fine with trans people but you homos have got to go.” And while there are a few that go the other way, the chances are if someone is rapidly furious about transsexuals then gay people are not top of their fanlist either. The same arguments used against transsexuals (it’s not natural/what my deity intended blah blah blah) are the same ignorant and stupid arguments that are used against gay folks.
We want the same things - (equality, respect, not to be screwed over more than your average person is). We have the same principles (proud of who we are, unwillingness to hide, to be who we know we are rather than what society demands we be) We have the same enemies. They use the same language to attack us. We’re on the same side. We’re fighting the same fight and there most certainly should be a T in the GBLT movement.
Which brings us to the idea of transsexuals latching onto, diluting or dragging down the gay rights movement (or homosexual agenda if you want to freak out the crazies. And you know you do. C’mon, it’s fun.). Well again, same fight, same issues, same enemy. It’s not diluting resources when we’re saying the same thing, hitting the same targets and struggling against the same opposition. You don’t dilute or misdirect a movement by adding more people moving in the same direction.
And lastly - would it be easier if gay people dumped the transsexuals and just campaigned for homosexuals? I don’t know, probably not I think (same sissues, same enemies etc etc). It’s a moot point anyway - I mean would it be easier for lesbians to gain more acceptance if they dropped us gay men? (Personally i don’t buy that trope that lesbians get less shit than gay men, our sisters get waaay more than their share of shit - but you get the idea). Or how about we drop the drag queens? How about we drop everyone who isn’t middle class, reserved and fits gender stereotypes as utterly closely as possible? Or maybe every member of queerdom who doesn’t cower on their knees apologising to the bigots for being naughty sinful homos?
Because if you’re going to start dropping people because they may freak out the bigots slightly more than you do then it’s not going to end and we’ve LOST. If you’re going to play the “I’m a good homosexual, they’re the bad ones!” card them GTFO, tbh. Because you’re a bloody collaborator with the bigots and we don’t need it. You’re VALIDATING they’re hate. You’re encouraging it. You’re accepting it, you‘re saying it‘s reasonable, right, even good. And you need to cut that shit out RIGHT NOW!
Stand with your brother’s and sister’s together so we can get some justice, some respect, some tolerance, some acceptance and basic human dignity or get the hell away from us.
Sparky’s guide to not giving trans people shit
Again, just because the homophobes treat us like shit, doesn’t mean we’re excused treating transsexuals like shit. They’d treat us like shit anyway, it’s not the transsexual’s fault. Place the blame where it’s deserved
Don’t tell them their identity. Accept their own self-identification - arguing about their identity is as annoying or more as when straight people tell us we’re not really gay.
Don’t use pejorative terms. Not even in fun. Yes, I know you use gay slurs among gay folks and we CAN because that’s reclaiming. You’re not transsexual. You can’t reclaim those words. Don’t use tranny, Mister-sister or any of the other crap people have used. Not even if some transsexuals say you can. If you’re told a term is offensive, apologise and stop using it. Don’t argue.
Make our spaces friendly. We all know how utterly WONDERFUL it is to go into a gay club or gay society or even a gay pride parade and have that wonderful “AHHH” relax feeling knowing that this is our space and we’re safe to BE here. Hetero-normative society has made most of the world as unfriendly to transsexuals as it has for us. Let the transsexuals feels safe in our space. Let it be their space as well.
Include transsexual issues on our agenda. Give space and time to their issues. Make sure your GBLT movements give more than a passing nod to our T brothers and sisters. We’re in this together, let them be a part of it
Don’t accept prejudice shit from other GBLs just because they’re GBLs - call them on it. Grab the haddock and slap them hard.
Don’t do shit to them that annoy you when straights do it to us. Are you asking personal questions of a complete stranger? Are you making ridiculous assumptions? Are you applying stereotypes? Are you treating them as a walking avatar of transsexuality rather than a person? Are you making tasteless jokes? Well that shit annoys us so why do you think it wouldn’t annoy them?
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-25 02:43 pm (UTC)You're one of the good people, Sparky.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-26 02:15 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-25 02:55 pm (UTC)You are so awesome!
(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-26 02:15 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-25 03:02 pm (UTC)ahem. that being said,
yes. <3 i feel badly about a lot of the shit trans people get. ...their gender identity affects you HOW? i mean, srsly.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-26 02:17 pm (UTC)I just don't get this so much about so much prejudiced. Why the hell do they CARE about someone's sex life or sexuality or gender identity or whether they're married or whatever. Seriously - why do these people care so much about other's people's lives that they feel the need to go so completely apeshit about it?
(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-25 03:08 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-26 02:17 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-27 03:44 am (UTC)"What's with Dawn?"
"Oh, she's having Sissues because she can't get a ride to the mall."
(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-25 03:46 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-26 02:18 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-25 03:52 pm (UTC)I have a good friend who's male. I don't think of him as female now (although I first knew him before he 'came out') he's just, him... And it gave me a headache on the phone asking for him by his female name... :P
I think a good portion of problems are down to people just not accepting people for who they are. Not labelling them. And also - for trans - wrapping brain round idea that male body != male... And it's probably a self-reassurance thing - 'she says she's actually male... could that happen to me?'
Add in the confusion that some trans people are (biologically) gay (i.e. like the same sex as their birth gender) which makes them straight and some people (biologically) straight which makes them gay... That one always gives me a headache...
I find it interesting - and your rants are an interesting read... At the end of the day, unless I'm interested in dating someone I don't care what gender/sex/sexuality you are. You're you. People label us - not any universal law. :)
(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-26 02:35 pm (UTC)Insecurity is such a major part of it and it's really just depressing. Not only can't people be happy with who people are and accept people for who they are - but they can't accept themselves for who they are and are always runninbg scared of "what if I am like that?"
In the end people's labels are just that - labels - and they get it wrong and it's most certainl;y not something we need to be bound to :)
(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-25 04:18 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-26 02:35 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-25 05:39 pm (UTC)My stepdaughter is transgender and when she first came out one of the things that both myself and my partner balked at was the fact that she wore dresses and heeled shoes. For us this was a gross skewing of what we perceived as 'our' gender; we tended towards DMs and dungerees and had encouraged all our kids to break out of gender stereotyped roles, so to have this - what seemed at the time - strange creature appear in our midst dressed in short skirts, midriff revealing tops and high heeled pumps felt almost like a betrayal. And yes, the initial reaction was to lash out at her.
What we didn't realise was that this form of dress is encouraged by the mental health professionals who 'diagnose' and 'treat' transgender people. Despite the fact that a large number of women spend their days in jeans or suit pants, for some of these professionals the bit about 'living as a woman' - a prerequisite for gender realignment surgery - seems to be synonymous with wearing full make-up, high heels and floaty dresses, and getting a real man to fix the car.
As a society, we seem so determined to draw hard and fast lines between the genders that the minute anyone threatens to cross them, they have to be reinforced. 'You want to be a woman/man? Then you have to do this, this and this,' despite the fact that if the transgender person had been born with a body which corresponded to their gender, they quite possibly would not choose to express themselves through that type of clothing or behaviour.
Add in media representation of what a woman is and really there's no wonder that a clash occurred - it dragged questions about the precise nature of femaleness and femininity out into the spotlight and made for a hideously uncomfortable time for us all. My partner and I were too insecure to see beyond the clothing, and our daughter to the sexual politics which lay beyond her need for self expression. Ironically if she had chosen full body tattoos or piercings, we probably would have done little more than bat an eyelid. But on the same level, had she been born in a female body, we would probably have had the same issues with her clothing choices.
Now, being older and wiser, I understand that it's bigoted and narrow minded attitudes towards gender - including my own at the time - that I have the problem with, not my stepdaughter. And I regret, deeply, the pain I caused at the time.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-25 09:43 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-26 02:44 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-26 02:43 pm (UTC)All of this - and all of the pain from it - just shows how ridiculous screwed we are with gender. Our socities have such narrow and strict definitions of gender appropriate roles and behaviour that it seeps into all of it - either as a desperate attempt to escape, a desperate attempt to conform, fear of the different, fear we're doing it wrong - gah it's just so messed up.
I am glad you got through that even though it caused unnecessary pain - each step we get better.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-25 07:50 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-26 02:44 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-25 11:19 pm (UTC)Anyone wanting to know just how deep-rooted the problem of gay prejudice is for trans people should look at posts like:
http://transgriot.blogspot.com/2009/03/queerty-transphobia-racism-and-white.html
http://transgriot.blogspot.com/2007/10/why-transgender-community-hates-hrc.html
And why being trans is a very dangerous business:
http://www.womanist-musings.com/2009/03/trans-hate-continues-to-lead-to.html
http://transgriot.blogspot.com/2008/08/kellie-telesford-murderer-gets-off.html
(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-26 02:45 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-26 01:18 am (UTC)Gender, body dysmporhpia and sexuality are three different areas of psychological discomfort/dischordance.
Even straight people struggle with their sexuality. They struggle with their sense of self and how they look (and I'm not talking hair cuts here) - I have sat and actually thought about whether I'd rather be male (and decided I prefer female)... I'm bi - this isn't confused, I am sexually attracted to both sexes, and it's purely sexual. It's not emotional, it's not about my own sense of self. It's the way both girls and boys look, taste and feel... in my hands.
I feel that transgender people have a body dysmorphia issue - they are not happy with elements of their body to the point they are willing to go to drastic ends to change it. I'm not talking unhappy like a bad haircut. I'm talking unhappy like a person with full blown anorexia believes they are over weight, or a triptophobic person is afraid of their own body hair. That there is something intrinsically not right about their body, and how they see it for themselves. Unlike many psychological conditions, the desire to be another sex is deeper, stronger and more intense. I have no issue with transgender people swapping gender, and feeling at home in their 'new' skin. But I fail to see how that is linked to who they want to fuck.
We also need to differentiate transgender people, and cross dressers. One is artisitic play or fiction, the other is the attempt to genuinely cross over.
What does get to me is the need to jump up and down. The people I know who both cross dress, and are transgender... quietly go about their business... they aren't jumping up and down in people's faces or proving the point. They are accepted fairly widely, in their day to day lives - including clubbing, pubbing, work and/or families. Without being dramarific.
But then... I hate drama whores.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-26 03:37 pm (UTC)And part of that is based on insecurity because we know that WE don't quite fit in those narrow boxes (i.e. we're doing it wrong)
I'm amazed by the people who confused transgendered people with transvestites. It just goes to show how hooked we are on our little boxes that people who dress up are considered to be transgendered
Well the problem is there's a lot to be dramatic about. trans people go through a whole lot of shit - and sometimes only by beingt loud and dramatic can tyou get that recognised - it's the power of anger in any movement for justice. You need to be angry to be heard and noticed and recognised that YES there are issues and NO it's not right and YES something has to be done
(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-26 05:53 am (UTC)Personally, the whole issue bugs me on a personal level because I don't consider myself straight . . . but wouldn't be accepted as queer because I pretty much like men. Meh, it's complicated.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-26 03:38 pm (UTC)