My own spin off rant from...

[sparkindarkness]

... this post http://tsuki-no-bara.livejournal.com/

Women getting naked and men never do - like it's some terrible thing for women to lust after naked men (female lust - RUNNNN!). This whole idea that women don't care what men looks like, don't think that way etc - I mean, it's just the height of denial. I don't know what the full issue is - is it the last clinging threads of oppressing female sexuality? An idea that a 'dominant' cannot be the one stared at so it must be men doing the staring? A last fool grasp for feminine modesty? I don't know, and others have covered it all already.

What it made me think of is the idea of looking good. Women are expected - nay, demanded - to look good to a ridiculous degree. From diets to cosmetics to more anti-aging creams than you can shake a stick at. It's changing a little, but you look at 90% of any product design to make you look younger/better looking/colour hair and the people in it? Female.

Yes, we've all heard it, but there's a flip side as well. There's almost a taboo against men looking good. Every heard someone whine "he's so cute he has to be gay?" (admittedly not common but it's heard here and there) or variations on a theme? Good looking = gay? Why? Because only men care about looks so straight guys don't need to make the effort. How many 40 year old women spend the third world debt on creams to look younger and diet like crazy for fear of an extra pound? And how many 40 year old men wander around happily with paunches, greying hair and dress in boring suits or ratty bits of anything? (And don't get me started on straight porn - beautiful woman with big breasts and great figure shags the creature of the black lagoon with back hair like a gorilla).

I mean, it's sooo STUPID. Believe me, I am more glad than anyone that men don't have the same societal demands as women, that's just ludicrous. But to make it almost criminal for men to look good (or at least to actually make an effort to look good) is also silly (not nearly as silly, but still annoying). There's a derision attached to good looking guys as well (alright, probably a lot envy related) 'Pretty boy' etc - it's a sign of 'weakness' to look good.

I really think that many men are actually SCARED of good looking men - not just in an envy way, but in a squick way. Let alone a good looking naked man (is that part of the reason why porn actors are sometimes ugly as sin?) it's like a kind of terror - ARGH, good looking naked men! Also very silly. Is it all about gender insecurity? All about sheer terror of sexuality? Or is it all linked to this idea of being STRONG and the STRONG can't be pretty (pretty is weak) and the STRONG can't like pretty (pretty wastes time). Is it why men can't like fashion or flowers or curtains or whatever? Because the only pretty you allow yourself must be related to sex - almost like you need an excuse to indulge in pretty.

Hmm... does anyone know where I was going with this? I forget.

Comments

[gnarlycranium.livejournal.com]

Well, I think that maybe it's true to an extent that women don't stare at naked men THE WAY that men stare at naked women. Not quite, generally speaking. Overall, women are a little less geared towards visual stimulation. Also these days men seem very specifically focused on images of naked women that portray them as extremely vulnerable-- helplessness, hapless youth, and accessibility seem to be the main keys to turning them on. Men on the other hand are idealized as powerful and capable-- they don't NEED to be naked to be attractive, whereas a woman just about CAN'T be attractive if she's got anything on (especially if it involves footwear she could actually run away in).

creature of the black lagoon with back hair like a gorilla
Yeah WTF IS WITH THAT?!! I mean not that I'm into porn, but everywhere, every time, in every movie, it's some nasty-looking guy who miraculously lands a pretty girl, and NEVER EVER EVER EVER IN A MILLION YEARS the other way around.

men don't have the same societal demands as women
I often get the impression that homosexual men are under a lot of pressure to look good that's pretty comparable to what women face.. though I could be totally wrong, maybe it's just certain subcultures that end up like that.

I really think that many men are actually SCARED of good looking men
Yes, I think so too! My theory: being a hairy beer-gutted jerk doesn't shut off the portion of the brain that's capable of recognizing beauty-- so when a guy looks good enough for other guys to notice, the knee-jerk reaction is one of homophobic panic and confusion. It's alien, they don't understand it, and haven't had enough experience with the concept to know how to deal with it comfortably-- unlike women, who deal with one another's beauty regularly and can appreciate it without freaking out. (generally speaking, a guy can't say 'oh, bob, those jeans are so CUTE on you, I love it!!' or any equivalent thereof)

It's all tied into the way men have been brainwashed to reject anything but mindless headbutting as weakness. Emotions, beauty, love, satisfaction that goes any deeper than knocking other people down, is shunned... and frankly if anything that might almost be MORE destructive than what society does to women. Women at least can have friends, express themselves.. they don't have to go through life silenced, empty, terrified, and lonely. Not in the same way, anyhow. It breeds greed and cruelty.

Ramble ramble, heh.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

I think part of the reason why women aren't so "oh my god, naked man, YES!" (though I think many are more than they claim) is because society still seems to look down on it. I heard someone once say men go out to look and women go out to be looked at - I think because there is still an idea that women should be passive that isn't shaking off.

At the same time, while society has been telling women they have to be beuatiful and men that they don't, at the same time it's been telling men that their partners SHOULD be beautiful and women that what their partner looks like doesn't matter so much - and that has been happening for a VERY long time. Just a brief look at celebrities - extremely rich, ugly guy marries young beautiful wife and people hardly blink (except in extreme cases). A rich woman who may be advanced in years picks out a sexy young hunk and it's wagging tongues everywhere (errr... I meant gossip).

So, yeah, gay men also have a pressure to be sexy (not so much a societal pressure per se - but definitely a subculture pressure for homosexuals at large.) because, again, men are programmed to expect their partners to look good. I'm not as sure, but I think lesbians don't face as much of the same pressure because, again, women are not pushed into the idea that their partner should look good - but then, they also get societal pressure.

so when a guy looks good enough for other guys to notice, the knee-jerk reaction is one of homophobic panic and confusion.

That's the point. It's all very beauty = sex. You aren't allowed to appreciate beauty in a non-sexual context and when you do see soemthing beautiful that you're NOT supposed to find sexual there's a whole brain squick going on.

And yes, the isolation and constant insecurity (and it is insecurity - because it must be like constant doubt) that this whole STRONG mindset brings is not healthy.


Straight porn? I don't get. I suppose it's intended to plug into the idea that hey, you ugly git can get a fabulous woman too!

[klgaffney.livejournal.com]

Yeah WTF IS WITH THAT?!! I mean not that I'm into porn, but everywhere, every time, in every movie, it's some nasty-looking guy who miraculously lands a pretty girl, and NEVER EVER EVER EVER IN A MILLION YEARS the other way around.

probably because they assume that these same women that naked men don't ever watch porn, either, so they gear all the porn toward men? i have noooo idea, but yeah, it makes me twitch, too. EW. i know a number of women on my flist combat that by simply renting gay porn. which amuses me to no end. i think i'd probably do that too, if i were into porn all that much. =p

I often get the impression that homosexual men are under a lot of pressure to look good that's pretty comparable to what women face..

i kinda thought something to that effect too--altho i think a lot of the pressure women put on themselves to look good is their own placed on themselves--they compete with other women. my husband tends to think i'm stupidly cute regardless of what i'm wearing, sans makeup and my hair all in disarray. granted, i very rarely wear makeup anyway, but yeah. in the meantime certain aquaintences of mine are horrified that i don't care what label is attached to their purse or their shoes or whatever. because i really, really don't. does it look good? is it comfortable? do you like it? okay, well i guess it's alright, then. ....apparently i'm not very satisfying to deal with, when it comes to traditional "girly" things. *rolls eyes.*

WORD on the good-looking men thing. if they notice, they feel all threatened, omg. i only noticed that because a lot of artists and my husband will cheerfully remark when some guy is attractive without any sexual attachment to it and the reaction from other guys is HYSTERICAL. and lo, they are mocked for their stupid.

i think that's pretty damned destructive also--in fact, it seems society's favorite way of teaching boys anything is to bash them over the head. bash them over the head with women's rights, bash them over the head that everything traditionally associated with being male is threatening, evil and wrong, and now we've got either a bunch of broken, inoffensive, castrated boys, or we have snarling, simpering assholes--because now being male is just...a perverted joke, something you do to be sly behind women's backs. rather like all the nasty little shits on all the comedy movies of late.

frankly, i'd hate to have to try to raise boys in this day and age. i mean, what happened to teaching honor, chilvary, rites of passage, all that good stuff? it's like the baby got thrown out with the bathwater, or something. =\