Another sparkindarkness magic guide update
Aug. 4th, 2005 10:03 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
sparkindarknessOne day I will get all of this right
I’m being very introspective lately. First the Sidhe take me on the grand migraine tour of the courts and now Camaalis are shoving their oar in. I think it’s because I suggested the fae were more complex than them - their feathers are ruffled. (A pride complex between Camaalis on the Sidhe to claim the title of most complex? Please gods no!)
Thing is, I’ve been looking at the magic system in Spark in Darkness and at Shamanism and it just doesn’t fit right… I mean, you look at the power of three and all other magic styles then at shamanism and it doesn’t go. Shamanism is too damn generic. Every other power is specialised, limited, has a set of rather narrow parameters - shamanism is as wide as the hills and more. The only powers that are like that are Alchemy and Rune Carving - but that’s because they’re bits of all three powers and not - strictly speaking - individual talents in the traditional sense, more off shoots of many talents. But shamanism isn’t like that - it isn’t a development of a shared concept that you can be especially skilled in, it is a talent on its own - I’m sure of that.
So I turn to Rick. Of course THAT fails because he’s not really into the ‘whys’ and ‘hows’ he just knows that he can do stuff. Darren’s not much better, he knows hows and whys but shamanism isn’t HIS hows and whys so he doesn’t have the info, perspective or even much in the way of interest.
So, with all due trepidation I turn to Camaalis. After digging through the aura of supreme smugness, I find that THEY don’t know either (oh and don’t you just love that). It’s actually one of their current cutting edge researches and it’s really interesting where they’re going with it. Anyway - this is what I got from them. They’ve given it to me in a model of questions and answers (I believe it’s some ancient Greek teaching method, but I’m buggered if I know which).
”What is a Shaman?”
“It’s someone whose magic uses spirits - they can talk to them, deal with them and control them to a degree.”
“Wait - anyone can do that. Even if you don’t have magic, if you share a common language and understanding anyone can talk to the spirits.”
“True - but the shaman is the only one who can really rely on them listening. He’s a VIP rather than the man on the street - the spirits listen. His magic attracts, controls, and generally interacts with them and the spirit world.”
“OK, what’s a spirit?”
“An entity from one of the other realms.”
“Is a Daemon a spirit? A Chimmerling? An Angel? A Ghost?”
“No, shamans cannot talk to them. Not easily anyway - no more easily than normal people can.”
“Wait, you can’t do that. You’re defining a spirit as something a shaman talk to and a shaman as someone who talks to spirits. You cannot use them to define each other - especially if you end up cutting away bits which don’t fit. You’re forcing fact to fit theory.”
“Well… Daemons, angels etc have other clerics that can talk to them.”
“Are these clerics shamans? Accepting spirits as other-world entities and shamans as someone who can communicate with and have automatic favour and power among them, then we have to accept that these clerics are shamans.”
“They cannot call other spirits.”
“A shaman cannot either - you just said, they cannot call daemons, angels etc. Let’s say they’re shaman but different types of shaman.”
“Ok, granted… but a Necromancer or Dreamer is much more specialized than a Shaman.”
“Is it? A Necromancer has vast power and co-operation from any entity FROM HIS SPECIALIST REALMS. We just don’t’ make a habit of exploring the Realms of the dead so our knowledge is limited - there could be a lot more variety. And that’s just it - it’s the same power on their specific Realm, it just happens that Shaman’s have a talent in a realm that is pretty generic, whereas Celestials and Necromancers call from very specific Realms. Besides are Shamans that generic?”
“Of course they are, they have talents in many Realms.”
“Do they? Look at Nikolai’s report from America. Look at the difference between our own shamans. Nikolai can call nature spirits but how often does he use spirits of technology or mind or politics?”
“Personal preference, understanding and connection.”
“Exactly! Personal preference and understanding and connection - that’s what sets Shamans apart from ordinary people communicating with the spirit world. They have a connection with the spirits. BUT as we see, not ALL spirits.”
“Ok, ok, but Nikolai CAN call technology spirits - he prefers not to, but he can.”
“Ah, but look at the Realms. The Realms of the technology spirits are besides each other and often overlapping. The spirits share a common language, don’t they?”
“Don’t all spirits? Not including daemons, angels and the other ‘quasi-spirits.’”
“No. Most political spirits do not, some mind spirits do not. So, Technology and nature spirits share similar Realms and similar language - so a Shaman can communicate with them, and because he is a Shaman of a very similar realm, his powers can effect the Realm itself, but he doesn’t get the same degree of power or the same degree of control or respect - even the Shamans admit that some Realms do not respond to them as well as others. Think of it like, say, Britain and America. Someone from Britain can go to America, the land and landscape has similar properties, there is a common language - the British person can get by and get along quite happily. But the land ISN’T identical and the people and culture are not the same. There is a superficial similarity, and you can make it more so with study, but the British man is still not American. In the same way, a Nature Shaman isn’t a Technoshaman, even if they CAN get by in the foreign country quite well.”
“OK… I can see that. But, if this were true, then presumably we’d have Shamans of more alien Realms, like the British guy going to China or Ethiopia or Brazil or somewhere… ones who CAN’T get by in the Nature Realm etc because their Realm is so different.”
“Ah, but we do, see? Only we’ve never called them Shamans - we’ve called them Necromancers and Celestials etc - because we’ve narrowly and arbitrarily defined spirits as other-Realm creatures people we call Shamans can talk to. In fact, we also very rarely get a Shaman who is very powerful but doesn’t seem able to use their power very well - they are Shamans of Realms we haven’t discovered or studied.”
“That… makes sense. And it also explains why Nikolai can never get any real aid from really powerful technology spirits but Cerys can, despite being weaker than him. It also explains why calling the Power of Three with a Shaman sometimes fails - because the powers aren’t compatible. Basically, Shaman is just another word for Cleric? Any user of the Second Power?”
“Or - if we choose to limit Shaman to nature spirits as was the habit centuries ago - many of those we call shaman aren’t really shaman. Shaman call on entities as well as power - some Cleric’s only call on power. No. A shaman is a sub-set of Clerics.”
“Fascinating… I wonder if the other powers also have sub-sets?”
“We shall have to research this… and re-categorise our fellows.”
Hmmm… they SAID they didn’t know and were still researching it, but I think they’ve pretty much got the answer - they just need to get majority clan agreement before it becomes ‘gospel’. That makes a LOT more sense - Shaman’s AREN’T generic, they’re several different magicians all lumped together with one name. Well, one headache cured at least, though I think Rick’s confused.
I’m being very introspective lately. First the Sidhe take me on the grand migraine tour of the courts and now Camaalis are shoving their oar in. I think it’s because I suggested the fae were more complex than them - their feathers are ruffled. (A pride complex between Camaalis on the Sidhe to claim the title of most complex? Please gods no!)
Thing is, I’ve been looking at the magic system in Spark in Darkness and at Shamanism and it just doesn’t fit right… I mean, you look at the power of three and all other magic styles then at shamanism and it doesn’t go. Shamanism is too damn generic. Every other power is specialised, limited, has a set of rather narrow parameters - shamanism is as wide as the hills and more. The only powers that are like that are Alchemy and Rune Carving - but that’s because they’re bits of all three powers and not - strictly speaking - individual talents in the traditional sense, more off shoots of many talents. But shamanism isn’t like that - it isn’t a development of a shared concept that you can be especially skilled in, it is a talent on its own - I’m sure of that.
So I turn to Rick. Of course THAT fails because he’s not really into the ‘whys’ and ‘hows’ he just knows that he can do stuff. Darren’s not much better, he knows hows and whys but shamanism isn’t HIS hows and whys so he doesn’t have the info, perspective or even much in the way of interest.
So, with all due trepidation I turn to Camaalis. After digging through the aura of supreme smugness, I find that THEY don’t know either (oh and don’t you just love that). It’s actually one of their current cutting edge researches and it’s really interesting where they’re going with it. Anyway - this is what I got from them. They’ve given it to me in a model of questions and answers (I believe it’s some ancient Greek teaching method, but I’m buggered if I know which).
”What is a Shaman?”
“It’s someone whose magic uses spirits - they can talk to them, deal with them and control them to a degree.”
“Wait - anyone can do that. Even if you don’t have magic, if you share a common language and understanding anyone can talk to the spirits.”
“True - but the shaman is the only one who can really rely on them listening. He’s a VIP rather than the man on the street - the spirits listen. His magic attracts, controls, and generally interacts with them and the spirit world.”
“OK, what’s a spirit?”
“An entity from one of the other realms.”
“Is a Daemon a spirit? A Chimmerling? An Angel? A Ghost?”
“No, shamans cannot talk to them. Not easily anyway - no more easily than normal people can.”
“Wait, you can’t do that. You’re defining a spirit as something a shaman talk to and a shaman as someone who talks to spirits. You cannot use them to define each other - especially if you end up cutting away bits which don’t fit. You’re forcing fact to fit theory.”
“Well… Daemons, angels etc have other clerics that can talk to them.”
“Are these clerics shamans? Accepting spirits as other-world entities and shamans as someone who can communicate with and have automatic favour and power among them, then we have to accept that these clerics are shamans.”
“They cannot call other spirits.”
“A shaman cannot either - you just said, they cannot call daemons, angels etc. Let’s say they’re shaman but different types of shaman.”
“Ok, granted… but a Necromancer or Dreamer is much more specialized than a Shaman.”
“Is it? A Necromancer has vast power and co-operation from any entity FROM HIS SPECIALIST REALMS. We just don’t’ make a habit of exploring the Realms of the dead so our knowledge is limited - there could be a lot more variety. And that’s just it - it’s the same power on their specific Realm, it just happens that Shaman’s have a talent in a realm that is pretty generic, whereas Celestials and Necromancers call from very specific Realms. Besides are Shamans that generic?”
“Of course they are, they have talents in many Realms.”
“Do they? Look at Nikolai’s report from America. Look at the difference between our own shamans. Nikolai can call nature spirits but how often does he use spirits of technology or mind or politics?”
“Personal preference, understanding and connection.”
“Exactly! Personal preference and understanding and connection - that’s what sets Shamans apart from ordinary people communicating with the spirit world. They have a connection with the spirits. BUT as we see, not ALL spirits.”
“Ok, ok, but Nikolai CAN call technology spirits - he prefers not to, but he can.”
“Ah, but look at the Realms. The Realms of the technology spirits are besides each other and often overlapping. The spirits share a common language, don’t they?”
“Don’t all spirits? Not including daemons, angels and the other ‘quasi-spirits.’”
“No. Most political spirits do not, some mind spirits do not. So, Technology and nature spirits share similar Realms and similar language - so a Shaman can communicate with them, and because he is a Shaman of a very similar realm, his powers can effect the Realm itself, but he doesn’t get the same degree of power or the same degree of control or respect - even the Shamans admit that some Realms do not respond to them as well as others. Think of it like, say, Britain and America. Someone from Britain can go to America, the land and landscape has similar properties, there is a common language - the British person can get by and get along quite happily. But the land ISN’T identical and the people and culture are not the same. There is a superficial similarity, and you can make it more so with study, but the British man is still not American. In the same way, a Nature Shaman isn’t a Technoshaman, even if they CAN get by in the foreign country quite well.”
“OK… I can see that. But, if this were true, then presumably we’d have Shamans of more alien Realms, like the British guy going to China or Ethiopia or Brazil or somewhere… ones who CAN’T get by in the Nature Realm etc because their Realm is so different.”
“Ah, but we do, see? Only we’ve never called them Shamans - we’ve called them Necromancers and Celestials etc - because we’ve narrowly and arbitrarily defined spirits as other-Realm creatures people we call Shamans can talk to. In fact, we also very rarely get a Shaman who is very powerful but doesn’t seem able to use their power very well - they are Shamans of Realms we haven’t discovered or studied.”
“That… makes sense. And it also explains why Nikolai can never get any real aid from really powerful technology spirits but Cerys can, despite being weaker than him. It also explains why calling the Power of Three with a Shaman sometimes fails - because the powers aren’t compatible. Basically, Shaman is just another word for Cleric? Any user of the Second Power?”
“Or - if we choose to limit Shaman to nature spirits as was the habit centuries ago - many of those we call shaman aren’t really shaman. Shaman call on entities as well as power - some Cleric’s only call on power. No. A shaman is a sub-set of Clerics.”
“Fascinating… I wonder if the other powers also have sub-sets?”
“We shall have to research this… and re-categorise our fellows.”
Hmmm… they SAID they didn’t know and were still researching it, but I think they’ve pretty much got the answer - they just need to get majority clan agreement before it becomes ‘gospel’. That makes a LOT more sense - Shaman’s AREN’T generic, they’re several different magicians all lumped together with one name. Well, one headache cured at least, though I think Rick’s confused.