On not prosecuting torturers
Apr. 25th, 2009 12:58 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
sparkindarknessI just have to climb on my soap box here and open my mouth about torture that we (and it IS we, not just America) have been perpetrating in recent fun middle eastern adventures.
Firstly - this whole debate about what is and isn’t torture? Shouldn’t be happening. Ever. Seriously. If there is even an IOTA of doubt about whether what you are doing is torture then it SHOULD NOT BE HAPPENING. Full stop. No debate. If it even kinda sorta could be torture if looked through a fuzzy lens when very drunk - it shouldn’t be happening. Nothing that comes CLOSE to torture should be in our repertoire. Just NO. Under no circumstances. In no way. We shouldn’t have to define what is and isn’t torture (but we have - and, guess what, waterboarding IS one of them) because we should never ever get close enough that such a definition is necessary
Secondly - on debating with people that defend torture. Don’t. There is no debate. There can be no debate. There are some things that are beyond debate and beyond ALL possibility of debate. Even HAVING the debate is unacceptable. There are some things that are OFF the option list. They don’t get considered. They don’t get debated. It’s a NO. In all instances. In all cases. No exceptions. No defence. No justification. It’s just NO. To quote Fox News of all places (http://www.alternet.org/blogs/rights/138269/civil_war_emerges_at_fox_news%3A_%22%26tilde%3Bwe_don%27t_f*cking_torture%27_vs._%22%26tilde%3Btorture%2C_my_ass%27_/) “We don’t fucking torture.” End of. Anyone trying to mount any kind of defence or debate should be treated with the withering contempt and utter disgust they deserve.
Thirdly - torturers need to be prosecuted. They need to be accountable. Seriously. Because I’m looking here at the justifications for not going ahead. It would be “partisan.” We need to “move on.” It would be “divisive.”
Well let’s debunk this shall we? This is divisive for what? Torturers? We need to move on and work together with.. who? People who SUPPORT torturers? Seriously, you want that? Oh, yes I’m sure they could make things awkward in the short term - but these are people who support torture - you can’t USE that? They blocked an appointee? Go screaming from the rooftops that the torture supporters are angry that they don’t get to attach electrodes to genitals any more! Slime them every opportunity you get! What? Are such “dirty tricks” frowned upon? Should we take the high road? Well, guess what? They support torture! Exposing them and sliming them IS taking the high road!
If you/we/they/whoever wants to cling to a shred of the moral high ground then you need to NOT TORTURE. Seriously. The minute you torture you’re the bad guys. End of. The minute you torture you lose the necessary stance to criticise the abuses of other nations - because you TORTURE. You commit one of the ULTIMATE abuses. Any attempt at a moral stance you take from then on is pure hypocrisy - and will be treated with the contempt such hypocrisy deserves.
Moral authority, sense of self, the image of being the “good guys” all DIES if you torture. They cannot exist together. Torturers can’t be good guys. Torturers can’t have moral authority. Torturers can’t be a force for good. Torturers do not make the world a better place. Torturers cannot be trusted, cannot be worked with, cannot be accepted or reasoned with. Torturers are evil End of.
And if torturers are not prosecuted then that sends a message of consent, of acceptance. No amount of speeches declaring “we do not torture” will matter if torture is ignored, covered up and NOT PUNISHED. It’s only empty rhetoric if there is no accountability for torturers.
And, most of all, if you do not prosecute torturers more torture will happen. Why should the people in your intelligence agencies refuse to torture? They’ve shown themselves willing to do so and there was no consequences for them doing it. Why shouldn’t they do it again? for that matter why shouldn’t other nations torture? We do it - how can we tell them not to? How can we say it’s SOOOO awful when we don’t seem to care when we catch torturers in our own midst? Why shouldn’t they ignore our bleating about rights and cruelty when we’re clearly ok with it?
We shouldn’t be ok with it. But unless there’s accountability for it - then we say we are.
Firstly - this whole debate about what is and isn’t torture? Shouldn’t be happening. Ever. Seriously. If there is even an IOTA of doubt about whether what you are doing is torture then it SHOULD NOT BE HAPPENING. Full stop. No debate. If it even kinda sorta could be torture if looked through a fuzzy lens when very drunk - it shouldn’t be happening. Nothing that comes CLOSE to torture should be in our repertoire. Just NO. Under no circumstances. In no way. We shouldn’t have to define what is and isn’t torture (but we have - and, guess what, waterboarding IS one of them) because we should never ever get close enough that such a definition is necessary
Secondly - on debating with people that defend torture. Don’t. There is no debate. There can be no debate. There are some things that are beyond debate and beyond ALL possibility of debate. Even HAVING the debate is unacceptable. There are some things that are OFF the option list. They don’t get considered. They don’t get debated. It’s a NO. In all instances. In all cases. No exceptions. No defence. No justification. It’s just NO. To quote Fox News of all places (http://www.alternet.org/blogs/rights/138269/civil_war_emerges_at_fox_news%3A_%22%26tilde%3Bwe_don%27t_f*cking_torture%27_vs._%22%26tilde%3Btorture%2C_my_ass%27_/) “We don’t fucking torture.” End of. Anyone trying to mount any kind of defence or debate should be treated with the withering contempt and utter disgust they deserve.
Thirdly - torturers need to be prosecuted. They need to be accountable. Seriously. Because I’m looking here at the justifications for not going ahead. It would be “partisan.” We need to “move on.” It would be “divisive.”
Well let’s debunk this shall we? This is divisive for what? Torturers? We need to move on and work together with.. who? People who SUPPORT torturers? Seriously, you want that? Oh, yes I’m sure they could make things awkward in the short term - but these are people who support torture - you can’t USE that? They blocked an appointee? Go screaming from the rooftops that the torture supporters are angry that they don’t get to attach electrodes to genitals any more! Slime them every opportunity you get! What? Are such “dirty tricks” frowned upon? Should we take the high road? Well, guess what? They support torture! Exposing them and sliming them IS taking the high road!
If you/we/they/whoever wants to cling to a shred of the moral high ground then you need to NOT TORTURE. Seriously. The minute you torture you’re the bad guys. End of. The minute you torture you lose the necessary stance to criticise the abuses of other nations - because you TORTURE. You commit one of the ULTIMATE abuses. Any attempt at a moral stance you take from then on is pure hypocrisy - and will be treated with the contempt such hypocrisy deserves.
Moral authority, sense of self, the image of being the “good guys” all DIES if you torture. They cannot exist together. Torturers can’t be good guys. Torturers can’t have moral authority. Torturers can’t be a force for good. Torturers do not make the world a better place. Torturers cannot be trusted, cannot be worked with, cannot be accepted or reasoned with. Torturers are evil End of.
And if torturers are not prosecuted then that sends a message of consent, of acceptance. No amount of speeches declaring “we do not torture” will matter if torture is ignored, covered up and NOT PUNISHED. It’s only empty rhetoric if there is no accountability for torturers.
And, most of all, if you do not prosecute torturers more torture will happen. Why should the people in your intelligence agencies refuse to torture? They’ve shown themselves willing to do so and there was no consequences for them doing it. Why shouldn’t they do it again? for that matter why shouldn’t other nations torture? We do it - how can we tell them not to? How can we say it’s SOOOO awful when we don’t seem to care when we catch torturers in our own midst? Why shouldn’t they ignore our bleating about rights and cruelty when we’re clearly ok with it?
We shouldn’t be ok with it. But unless there’s accountability for it - then we say we are.
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(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-25 12:24 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-05-01 11:58 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-25 03:45 pm (UTC)THIS THIS THIS
We can NOT be as Two-Faced as the Mayor of HalloweenTown, Smiling on one side of our face, morally outraged at such actions while spinning the head and turning a blind eye to it going on within our own ranks.
I thought it had been proved that torture really doesn't work? that people will say ANYTHING to get the pain to stop?
am I the only one who hopes that our 'shining knight' GETS RID OF "Homeland Security" since it is made of the epic fail?
(no subject)
Date: 2009-05-01 11:59 am (UTC)It has been - repeatedly. So why why why why why why why do it? I am just horrified at the idea?
I hope he does but I have doubts. Why this ducking and weaving around prosecuting them? Why the doubt? Why the reservations? It does not fill me with glee
(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-25 05:50 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-05-01 11:59 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-27 12:55 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-05-01 12:01 pm (UTC)They're showing a level of love and kindness that's just stunning aren't they? Sickening. Sickening and repellent the pair of them,