Ok possibly a TMI rant: Sex, kink and fiction

[sparkindarkness]

I am now going to put in a nice little cutty thing to shield your tender, innocent eyes



You all clicked didn't you? Shameful! SHAME!


Ok, some rants.

Rant the first - Being kinky. Especially with regards to BDSM. I spoke about this briefly here http://sparkindarkness.livejournal.com/215749.html but looking around I remember that it's not exclusive to one author, nor am I the only reader irritated by it

http://dearauthor.com/wordpress/2009/02/24/review-the-reluctant-dom-by-tymber-dalton/comment-page-1/#comment-192678

So let's pull this out onto the carpet where we can see it in all its glory.

I am kinky. I am a fan of BDSM. I am a switch and, yes, I am both a Sadist and a Masochist, primarily the latter. I also play dominance and submission games with glee. Freely admitted without shame or worry or concern. I won't go into details about my particular preferences because they're unnecessary. That is what I am and what I am happy being - I am not ashamed or embarrassed by this (I used to be when I was much much younger, but a very good lover sorted out a lot of my problems on that score).

Things I am not:

1) I do not have any mental problems. I do not have any mental illnesses. My BDSM-ness is not in any way the result of or indicative of mental issues. My BDSM-ness is NOT a replacement for therapy. I find it ill-advised to the point of blithering stupidity for ANYONE to use sex as therapy.

2) I am not evil. I am not a sociopath. Really. Enjoying a little pain in the bedroom doesn't mean I relish in the agony of others. I don't torture kittens. I'm sympathetic to and upset by the pain of others. In fact, I'd go so far to say if you're in the BDSM scene the LAST person you want as a top is a sociopath. Really.

3) I am not guilty. I am not seeking a way to punish myself for some terrible sin or crime. I ENJOY IT. This isn’t self-punishment.

Because this is what I see in book after book and, I’ll be honest, it’s more than a little insulting and it’s certainly tiresome. But it’s also confusing


I just don’t quite get it. Are these authors who write about teh kinkeh so terribly terribly vanilla? I just get this image of these authors writing about BDSM and totally freaking themselves out. If it squicks you so badly, why are you writing about it? If it discomforts you so much that you can’t do some decent research into it then... why make it a part of your books and a major part of your characters?

I’m not saying authors should always write inside their comfort zones - but if they’re this put off by it or it is this alien to them then surely a little research at least is in order?

Comments

[janetmiles.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty much exclusively a masochist -- I don't switch (because topping just doesn't appeal to me and I feel very silly even trying to think about it) and I don't do DS (first, I have a strong sense that it would be unhealthy for me to play those games, and second, because a lot of DS squicks me).

I don't condemn others for switching or being kinked for DS (which is convenient, since both my playpartners are switches and one is strongly kinked for DS), I just don't go there.

I actually do have mental problems, but they're not related to my kinkiness. And while I don't use BDSM as therapy, it can be therapeutic (that is, a good scene can sort of "reboot" my brain -- but then again, so can certain kinds of music).

[touchstone.livejournal.com]

It's really the same as the problems any other group subject to stereotyping faces in fictional portrayals. For you, 1-3 above are all true. We all know that there exist individuals for whom they are NOT true. Looked at one character at at time, one can't really say that a {cruel and abusive top}/{lazy, criminal racial minorty}/{weak and helpless woman}/{socially maladroit computer game enthusiast} is implausible or unrealistic - people like that do exist in the real world. The problem is that some authors fail to notice that those are the ONLY portrayals of those groups they ever offer, or to realize how much it betrays their own limited worldview / lack of familiarity with the group in question.

[lilisonna.livejournal.com]

But if you're writing a romance novel or even a fantasy scenario (the Anita Blake books spring to mind here) wouldn't you try to go for the healthy scenarios instead of the broken relationship version. There's some argument to be made that BDSM relationships in erotic fiction aren't intended to be read as anything but erotic porn -- I enjoy reading a lot of erotica that comes no where close to scenes that I would want to play out in real life -- and thus they don't need to conform to real relationships. However, I would still expect the balance of stories/novels/etc to reflect the norm.

While there are a lot of examples of non-stereotyped folks out there for the latter tropes that you mention, there are a lot fewer counters to the media-portrayed stereotypical Dom/Sub relationships out there...or are there? When skimming through the various erotica archives out there, I do find a number of "caring top/happy sub" stories. Maybe these just get overlooked in the noise?

ANYWAY, I'm not sure any of this is to the point. I think "edgy" sex has become trendy over the past few years, so a number of authors feel the need to write kink. Some of those authors get it, and they write good stories about whatever kink they're discussing. Some don't; they are writing trendy stories, and they get it wrong because either they don't care, don't know, or are a little eewish about the whole thing to begin with.

[ephemera.livejournal.com]

*uses icon with intent*

[suryaofvulcan.livejournal.com]

My eyes! My eyes!

No seriously, I don't write BDSM any more, simply because I don't really get it.

But I'm slightly confused about the use of the word 'top' in this context. It seems like you're using 'top' to refer to the dominant or Sadist partner, yes? Which doesn't necessarily mean he/she is the ... er, penetrator? Or is the 'top' alaways a top?

And I please ignore this question if it's too personal - you are absolutely NOT obliged to educate me.

[touchstone.livejournal.com]

But if you're writing a romance novel or even a fantasy scenario (the Anita Blake books spring to mind here) wouldn't you try to go for the healthy scenarios instead of the broken relationship version?

I think you didn't think that question through, beloved. People in books tend to live miserable, stressful lives because happy, well-adjusted people without problems have boring stories. Isn't it an outright part of the standard romance novel formula that there's always something wrong with the relationship between the protagonists? Otherwise, there wouldn't be anything on which to hang a plot :)

Anyway, my points were (meant to be):
1. Lazy authors write stereotyped characters because they're lazy BUT...
2. Stereotyped characters aren't automatically invalid just because they match a stereotype.

A good author will have characters who cover the range, neither catering to the stereotype nor always avoiding it.

[touchstone.livejournal.com]

I'll toss my answer out, even though I'm not the one you were asking :) You're basically correct. 'Top' and 'bottom' are (in the BDSM context) most often terms for 'dominant partner' and 'non-dominant partner', rather than being about physical positioning, though those two probably move in parallel more often than not. These kinks are essentially about power (having it or not having it, and the feelings that generates), and posture and physical positioning speak very loudly to the parts of our brains that deal with such things. We're not so highly evolved as to have gotten away from that :)

Specific varieties of BDSM will have their own terms (dom/sub, etc), all of which have their own connotations; top/bottom is (at least among the people *I* talk to) the most general, and doesn't suggest any single manifestation of BDSM. Though the various activities that get grouped together under that heading seem similar from far enough away, there are people who enjoy one subset of them while being deeply uncomfortable with others. That make it important to have terms that don't directly imply participation in whichever piece of that world you don't like, so as to let people talk without offending each other by making assumptions about their particular tastes.

[klgaffney.livejournal.com]

in fact, I'd go so far to say if you're in the BDSM scene the LAST person you want as a top is a sociopath. Really.

GAH. amen. *twitch* no thank you.

in my case, there's been occasions of working thru things using sex as a tool. but i also don't think "theraputic" should be confused with "therapy." (i'm sure there probably ARE people somewhere doing "sex therapy" i...have all sort of ethical issues with that.)

*considers* there's probably points readers could probably say that some of mine are falling under the categories of "abusive/bad bdsm stereotypes." i'd have to go back and look at it more closely.

[suryaofvulcan.livejournal.com]

Thanks for explaining it :)

[zero_pixel_count]

...yet the two are not mutually exclusive.

One person might look at X kink and say 'ah, you can clearly trace that to Y formative incident'
Another, looking at exactly the same thing, can say 'X kink was part of the reason the person got into Y incident in the first place'

How to portray the latter without having it look like the former? This is the question... (highly problematic, with Dai. Certain stylistic elements to his kink are likely influenced by his somewhat fucked-up teenage years; the fundamentals are a different story, and I suspect a contributing factor to the fucked-upness of said teenage years.)

[lilisonna.livejournal.com]

Oh, very probably. It's one of those days at work, after all.

Still, most romance novels try to have healthy relationships between the two protagonists. They have to jump through hoops to get there, but the end result is good and thriving. For example, I've never noticed a romance novel with the "He's an abuser; she's codependent. They work it out and live happily ever after." theme, and the Smart Bitches would justifiably burst into flames of fury if they ever encountered such.

Still, your points stand for all genres.

[only-playing.livejournal.com]

I don't know a whole lot about BDSM or those that practice it, but I stick by my few rules.
1) I would rather see healthy relationships than nonhealthy ones, even if it is not necessarily a relationship that I myself would be a part of.
2) Do whatever floats your boat, as long as no young children or animals are harmed in the making of it, and it is all concentual.
3) Don't judge me and I won't judge you.

Whatever you like, as long as your Beloved is in to it, more power to you.

[rampagingturtle.livejournal.com]

I think I'm going to spend the rest of the day making the OMGWTFBBQ!?!?!?! face over the concept of that book. I might then follow it up by slamming my head in the door a few times, since *headdesk* doesn't quite seem to cover it. I'd add more substantive commentary, but no, I'm still firmly stuck in "what the barking buttfuck???" mode.

[tanarill.livejournal.com]

I bleeve in the doctrines of the Church of the Flying Spaghetting Monster. Especially 4 and 8, in this case.

But I do have a question, although it's semi-unrelated and you are by no means obligated to answer. To whit:

Does pain register the same way? I've heard varying opinions but not from someone who actually enjoys it, so I thought maybe I'd get the facts firsthand.

[lilisonna.livejournal.com]

ObCaveats: Everyone is different; I don't go in for anything other than very mild pain; YMMV.

I find that there's a whole wide variety of pain out there. A paper-cut is different than a burn is different than a broken toe is different from a spanking is different from intense nipple play. Some of that pain (in the right circumstances) is pleasurable. There are some forms of pain that I find attractive even outside of sex-play; I generally try to avoid them, but I can't say that I dislike them.

It's kinda like squash. I don't think that someone who actually likes the vile yellow vegetable is tasting something different than what I'm tasting. It's just getting interpreted differently. Some like their interpretations of the taste; others don't.

[touchstone.livejournal.com]

Good point. Though I confess that I now want to see someone write that book :)

[sapphybelle.livejournal.com]

Dear Mr Sparky,

I sent you an LJ message because I didnt want an email to be sent into the void of nowhere if I typed it wrong. Just letting you know in case you dont get notified automatically of such things.

~sapphy

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

I think there are a lot more of us out there than most people like to admit


Aye there is a big difference between therapeutic and therapy. A lot can be therapeutic. I would say kink or ANY sex is therapeutic for me in that it is destressing and that if I go too long without it bugs me

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Sadly yes - people see things they don't entirely understand and succumb to ignorant and simplistic characterisations. I just am bemused that authors would write about it (and presumably then have some minor interest in the topic) with so little research.

It's plausible and people like this do exist - but they are a disctinct minority. I would also say that the stereotype is based far less on actuality or on a significant minority in the group and instead based on what people PERCEIVE is the case

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

*agrees with icon*

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

well the problem is that broken relationships seem to be such a staple, especially in Anita Blake. Not so much that the relationships they have are broken but that the people COME IN broken. Seriously I don't think there's a single man in Anita's life who doesn't have mental problems.

I think a lot of people and certainly a lot of writers use angst/pain/torturous past as a quick and easy route towards some characterisation - I know I've done it before. It's a quick and lazy way to build some flesh on a character, sadly

But what bugs me is not that unhealthy BDSM relationships exist in fiction, but that they're nearly universal. Sure, healthy depictions are out there (I have found some very very good ebooks depicting it) but they are by far and away eclipsed.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Ah but the forumla in BDSM fiction is off.

Classic romance forumla:
Tortured past - work through it with TWU LUB - happy future.

But when BDSM enters the picture it doesn't gel well. We get:

Tortured past (literally) - rescue with TWU LUB - happy future RESCUED FROM BDSM

or

Tortured past - rescue with Twu Lub - happy future where BDSM is used to deal with tortured past (BDSM as therapy)

or

Tortured past - rescube with TWU LUB - happy future where partners recognise BDSM is needed because they are Broken and Accept that (like Anita with Nathaniel, or the book on Dear Author).

You don't get BDSM as a standard element of the HEA - it's either something to overcome or something they have to put up with - it's not something they seek, welcome or want.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

*mocks your eyes* you clicky you get teh brain melty :P

Which is fair and sensible. I mean, that's part of the whole brainsquick with me - why are these authors writing about a subject which clearly they know nothing about, care less and may actually be making themselves actively uncomfortable writing?

Top in a BDSM sense refers to the dominant partner - be that in a sadistic sense or dominance sense for d/s. That may also correspond to being the top in a homosexual sense but the 2 are not NECESSARILY linked.

A bottom is another word for a sub in this sense - the submissive partner/masochist etc. Again, it often coincides with being a bottom in a homosexual sense but the 2 are not necessarily linked

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Which shows just how far from the scene so many of these writers are - when anyone actually in the scene runs screaming at the very idea.

Therapeutic and therapy are not the same anumal. Therapy is healing, therapeutic is maintenance to my mind. Therapeutic can be anything you use to relax, enjoy, remind you that life is good and wonderful - be it sex, music, finger painting, long walks in the country or table dancing after too many Mai Tais.

therapy is fixing what is broken - and needs to be done carefully. And any dom taking someone who is broken and trying to put themselves back together and using that fragility to get their rocks off... well I is not impressed by them. Ethical issues is the politest way of putting it

Well, I think I've read everything you've written and while there is natural dominance and control issues by your characters actual relative status and hierarchies, they rarely cross over into what I would consider a BDSM relationship. They have a power disparity simply because of the society - but the lack of consent/abuse/control of that rarely crosses to the bedroom. Where the power dynamic DOES cross into the actual private relationship, I say it is handled nicely and carefully, there's little suggestion of non-consent, of taking advantage etc,

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

It's true that our origins can lead to our current tastes. But I find "tortured past = bdsm fan" to be so much of a tired trope

And there's a difference between "Yeah, i had a bad past, and yeah that MAY be why I'm into it, but I like it so screw it" and "oh woe is me, I am so tortured i now need pain to function!"

I can see and live with someone who had a less than ideal childhood and people theorising that this is where their kink comes from. But that's a world of difference from someone where the link is plainly drawn, the implication that only broken people have this kink and that kinkiness is a way of repairing them, y'know? Apart from anything else, the latter seem to take no joy in their kink

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Amen to that :)

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Yes, my brain hurt reading the review. Owie

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

All hail his Noodly goodness

With pain it's all about context. I would wager odds to evens it all registers the same as everyone else most of the time. But certain kinds of pain in certain kinds of context - well, still registers as pain, but pushes other buttons as well. It doesn't register differently - it registers the same but MOOOOOOOORE.

If pain is the drums playing away, then pain in the right context is when the guitars and the keyboards kick in - the drums are still there, registering the same but there's a whole lot more happening as well

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Aye different pain is very very different. Beloved has many a time joked that I am a complete wimp about a paper cut or a stubbed toe when I like things far harder in the bedroom. It's not just kind of burn (burn vs break vs cut vs bruise) but area where pain is inflicted as well not to mention build up to it

To me there are 3 kinds of pain

1) Pain pain. This is just BLAARGLE and Do Not Want

2) Context pain. Generally don't like it - but in certain circumstances hit the buttons right

3) Yummy, do it again. Some things just hit the buttons even when I'm not in the mood

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Did ye get my message back? I haven';t used LJ messaging much

[sapphybelle.livejournal.com]

I did :) thankyou for replying! I'm forwarding it on to her mum with all the important parts bolded (especially the parts where you stressed that what you said might not be correct) because she has a tendency to miss the point sometimes :(

[klgaffney.livejournal.com]

really, coming back to it--the whole premise of that book really just makes me back away snarling. nooo. worlds of no, just on the basis of all the manipulative crap that would have to be going on in that scenario alone.

and well, no, not really scene, (no brain, we are not thinking about how sidhe-human bsdm scene culture clash would work *swats brain*) but quite a few chars are fairly kinky, and the "bad guys" are definitely not vanilla, and there's an abusive past involved, so i had to stop and think about it, y'know? (this is not a bad thing, really. i will file it away for future editing purposes).

granted, i also wouldn't even dream of sticking any sort of blurb on, say z-corp, stating that this is how BSDM works, either. that just put it over the top--what was first reeally questionable story-telling is now blatantly wrong, misleading and quite offensive.

[zero_pixel_count]

*thinky*

...I fail at trying to talk in abstracts today so I'm going to go for the specific-that-is-bothering-me-about-all-this.

How, without getting all high-handed-authorial-lecture about it, do I make it clear that Dai is kinked the way he is just because he is - how do I stop people assuming that it's down to his past? How do I stop sex-as-stress-relief (and happening to be kinky) being misread as 'kink-as-therapy'? These are the questions that concern me, on this topic.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Well I think mainly the way would be to have Dai ENJOY it and his partners enjoy it without having to mentally justify it. That would be a huge difference - a non-evil character enjoying kink without feeling the need to justify it as a necessity of his broken broken self