*boggles* There's a lot of batshit crazy out there

[sparkindarkness]

See, I was surfing round various blogs when someone mentioned something that was so ridiculously insane that I just had to spend some quality time with google to confirm


http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/21606.php
http://www.healthcentral.com/genital-herpes/news-278709-98.html
http://www.thebody.com/content/news/art49868.html

And horrifyingly, it seems that it's at least partially true.


It's part of this whole "abstinence only education" movement (and you know I should expect any amount of insanity from that). In particular the news that some virgins are preserving their virginity by having anal sex.

.....

...

..

.


No, no matter how many times I type that it just doesn't fit in the brain. They have anal sex to preserve their virginity. They have anal SEX to preserve their virginity. They have ANAL SEX to preserve their VIRGINITY.

No, does not compute. Brain refuses to deal with this. In fact brain has fractured into several pieces in response to the stupidity (and part of it is snickering at me that, by these people's standards, I'm technically a virgin - does that get me moral high ground points?)

Now, I admit that the whole virgin borderline is a bit fuzzy. In fact, sometimes it's a bit fuzzy just to define sex. I mean, in my wonderful world of kinks and tricks and treats I've had erotic sexual encounters where everyon involved was fully dressed (no comments about what they were dressed AS thank you, and yes, you were thinking it) and other encounters were everyone was nekked and touching and no sex was involved. And then there's no end of sexual fumbling you can go through before most people will acknowledge the virgin line has been crossed. I think you can even have a long and interesting debate about oral sex and what side of the virgin line it crosses.

But anal sex? No. C'mon, no. Sure, the hymen is technically intact - but seriously, virgin? No. Really, I don't believe anyone believes that. About the only thing doing anal but not vaginal does for these deluded people is protect from pregnancy - and contraception does that much (but, the depressing thing is, you know these kids protecting their "virginity" with anal sex probably aren't using protection). It certainly doesn't proptect you from STDs (which MUST be the MAIN reason for sex education) and if it's for religious reasons? Well, if you believe in a god that cares whether you're a virgin or not I doubt VERY VERY much that said deity is going to be impressed by "I'm a virgin, we only had anal sex."



On a related note, one of the many studies on abstinence education has now revealed that it becomes even LESS effective if 30%+ of the student population in an area makes the virginity pledge (gods, does that not just make you want to gag?) which is (rightly) given as evidence that viginity pledges cannot be used as a widescale solution (*snorfle* like it ever was?!) But, of course it reveals more. It becomes less effective the more people do it? Well done guys, you've created a subculture, a clique.

Seriously, think about it. It becomes less effective the more of their school friends do it? Because they lose interest in it. It's not exclusive enough, it doesn't make them special enough, doesn't make them different enough. These are teenagers, after all. They've created this abstinence subculture, but it's totally not cool if EVERYONE does it. Only the hardcore members of any subculture stay in it when it becomes mainstream - trust me, I've seen the same thing with TEENY!Pagans and TEENY!Goths - you have the hardcore "true believers" and then a huge shed load of poseurs and hangers on walking the walk because it's cool and new and different - and then when there's too many of them it's no longer cool any more - and it all falls back to the hardcore again.

So, great, a virginity pledge subculture. Good way to mess with kids minds? Sure. Method of comprehensive, universal sex education? Not so much.

Comments

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

Somewhere out there is a site titled something like "Anal sex for Jesus" or somesuch.

Cracks me the heck up!

And in my book, vows to abstain as part of a personal commitment mean something. (I was 28 before I lost my virginity, and it was NOT for lack of opportunities. I was waiting for the right person.) Clubs of vowed virgins? Not so much!

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

I am afraid.

I am afraid because I am so tempted to google that - and I fear what I will find. I have the fear....

That's my view, it's a personal choice - so why try to fudge it? I mean, this "I'm a virgin but I have anal sex" strikes me as trying to cheat or lie. Who are they lying to? God? Well deity knows better. People around them? Like anyone's going to buy the "anal sex = virginity" Their future partners? If you're going to lie that much you may as well have any sex you like and say you're a virgin (it's not like the hymen is 100% positive proof)

It's a clique, a club, and it is so very very silly

[lilisonna.livejournal.com]

Honestly? I don't think they're trying to fudge it. I think that they just don't know. I was fortunate that I had a parent willing to talk honestly and openly about sex; my best friend was not. The depths of her ignorance was astonishing. I could easily see her as fully believing that anal sex = virgin. They just don't know.

Also, it's a clique as you say.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

That's depressing - I mean how hard is it to be informed these days?

But that is deeply deeply scary - and kind of depressing really. I mean, how much are they missing if they're that ignorant about their bodies

[polarbee.livejournal.com]

ooooookay. That's...weird. The logical contortions that requires hurt my brain.

[lilisonna.livejournal.com]

I don't think there are any logical contortions needed. The scenario goes like this:

G-D says, "Don't have sex."
Sheltered Teen says, "Sex? What's that? What shouldn't I be doing? I want to follow the rules; the rules are important, and G-d said so."
Rumor Mill explains "Sex" as Penis+Vagina.
Sheltered Teen has no other understanding of sex.
Rumor Mill offers up anal sex as a thing that feels good and isn't Penis+Vagina.
Sheltered Teen has anal sex.

[polarbee.livejournal.com]

You're right. I forgot to factor in Teen Thought and Rumor Mill.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

I am just stunned that they can be this ignorant. I mean, they have the internet? They have access to teens who aren't that silly? This is the 21st century! There must be SOME knowledge out there to stop this being, maybe a 1 time thing

[lilisonna.livejournal.com]

There's plenty of knowledge if you're willing to look for it. The Midwest Teen Sex Show is a fantastic (NSFW!) site; Scarleteen is great. Porn on the internet is limitless if you're willing to search for it.

However, the kids that we're talking about may not be willing to search for it. Sex isn't talked about. Friends don't talk about it because they all belong to the same church, and the church tells you that sex is Wrong. And of course because sex is Wrong, the church doesn't actually bother to explain what sex is. It's assumed that you just won't do it. So you're back to the Teen Rumor Mill, and what your boyfriend is saying, and hey, it sounds like it'll be okay.

And this is why sex ed is important.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

The Midwest Teen Sex Show is several kinds of awesome

I just can't get the mindset where a teen WON'T search for it. It boggles. I am boggling. I boggled

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

I* boggle, I really do

[lilisonna.livejournal.com]

One of my fondest memories of high school Sunday School class was a discussion on abstinence and how it Was Good and we Should Do It! The teacher shut down the discussion after I asked, "So, what is sex? If I kiss my boyfriend, does that count? We had oral sex last night; does that count?"

And that was pretty much the end of the conversation. I guess he thought it did.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

heh, they could use some questions like that. After all, if you're going to talk hell and damnation to people who don't follow the rules, the least you can do is clarify the rules!

[lilisonna.livejournal.com]

But talking about sex is wrong! And gross. And we can't tell the teenagers about sex because then they're just want to do it. (See later point.)

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

I have never understood this logic.

Since the dawn of time all species have felt the sexual urge. The vast majority of teens will want to ahve sex, that's basic biology. Not talking about it just means they're going to do it wrong

[brownkitty.livejournal.com]

Saint Sparky, patron saint of Abstinence Not! ?

Everything you've said, plus the fact that I want my children as non-neurotic about sex as possible, is why I give them honest answers to their questions and periodically ask whether they want to talk about it.

(Which has just led to my daughter telling me that boys aren't interesting yet, but they are annoying. And girls aren't interesting, but there's no disgust in her answer, just surprise that I asked. My son's is interested in girls and seems to assume that he'll get a girlfriend somewhat automatically, so 'tis time to give him more info.)

By the way, just in case your day hasn't been disturbing enough, something I've read but don't remember where is that part of the vows for virginity on the girl's part is to participate in a commitment ceremony TO THEIR FATHER. That concept, if true, strikes me as badly wrong on many levels.

[seryan.livejournal.com]

part of the vows for virginity on the girl's part is to participate in a commitment ceremony TO THEIR FATHER. That concept, if true, strikes me as badly wrong on many levels.
I've heard that before, too, and it disturbs me greatly, partly because it strikes me as incestuous, but mostly because it seems to say 'You can't be trusted to make decisions about your own body. An authority figure has to do it for you.' Eurgh.

[brownkitty.livejournal.com]

To me, it sounds very strongly like "You're a thing, not a person, and you can't ever belong to yourself." Not just decisions about your body, but about your mind and future.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Those disturb me, but it';s the possesion aspect that disturbs me the most.

Not only does an authority figure have to take over because you can't be trusted - but figuratively she is giving her virginity - her sexuality and sexual choices - to her father. They are his - to control and allow. *shudder8

And, as I've said, i notice no boys pledging to mums in purity balls - it strikes me a lot of patriarchal control over female sexuality - and female family members being possesions of the patriarch

[lilisonna.livejournal.com]

Purity Balls. They are a scary scary thing.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Yes they are. But when you say "purity balls" I STILL picture a sex toy. Because I am a bad bad man

[home-of-usher.livejournal.com]

Jareth the Cultist says purity balls as a sex toy have to be sparkly and full of glitter.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Yes, yes they should.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Exactly, it is seriously unhealthy to have this many hang ups about sex, your bodies and sexuality

I can understand waiting if you want to, but the amount of negativity surrounding sex horrifies me.

I saw them and my jaw would have gaped if it weren't for the need to clench my teeth to stop from vomiting. I mean ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew.

To pledge to your father on that level? BLAAAAAAAARGLE.

And I notice there are no cases of boys pledging their virginity to their mother *shudder* oh gods I need to purge these mental images

[brownkitty.livejournal.com]

What kind of eye candy would you like to distract yourself with?

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Why I think it would have to be Elijah wood. In leather. With toys :)

[touchstone.livejournal.com]

It certainly doesn't protect you from STDs (which MUST be the MAIN reason for sex education)

Actually, I'd disagree with the parenthetical comment. In my opinion, while learning about STDs is an important part of sex education, it ranks with, not above, things like 'learning how not to have a baby you can't take care of', 'demystifying the human body', and the general promotion of healthier sexual attitudes through a reduction of ignorance and dependence on...well, call them folk beliefs :)

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Well, i thiknk the rest are important - vitally so. but I put priority in ensuring that people know how to have sex without spreading lethal diseases highest.

The rest are waaaay up there as vital (and I think demystifying the human body is one that isn't given enough credence) most certainly, but I think the basics about not spreading a major plague will always be number one with me

[harald387.livejournal.com]

Go vote for Option 5 here, so we can give the phenomenon a name!

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

he is made of win :)

But option 4 has to have my vote :)

and 5 is the winner...

[msbrewski.livejournal.com]

http://saddlebacking.com/

much love goes to Mr Savage

Re: and 5 is the winner...

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

LOl, WIN WIN WIN!

[polarbee.livejournal.com]

From a position on the other side, I can think of good reasons to wait for sex. The main problem is that so many adults don't TELL teens these reasons because it means having to get into discussions about potentially uncomfortable topics. Bah. I never did well being told to do something or not to do something without any explanation of why. "because I said so" is never a valid response.

And I need coffee because I vaguely perceive I'm bordering on incoherent.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

I have no problem with people waiting for sex for whatever personal reasons appeal to them. I don't agree with them, but their genitals, their business :)

This whole abstinence movement bugs me because
1) it's saying that they should wait (which is their choice)
2) It adds to the extremely unhealthy idea we have that sex = bad
3) It removes choice, because it's abstinence ONLY not just abstinence
4) It doesn't work :)

Exactly. teens aren't 5 years olds. "Because I said so" is pretty poor for young kids. teenagers? Well, I've never heard of a strong incentive to dom something than have an adult tell a teen they're not to without explaining why

[touchstone.livejournal.com]

Just as a Devil's Advocate, I'm going to throw this one out. I think it's idiotic to teach ONLY abstinence, and it's downright fraudulent to call that 'sex education'. However, I think that 'it's okay to NOT HAVE SEX' is a vital message to include any sex education class. Part of letting them make an informed decision is countering outside pressure TO have sex, as well as removing the harmful ideas about sex being 'dirty'.

Sex is a great thing. People shouldn't be called names for having it. But people who aren't ready for it shouldn't be pushed or mocked into doing it before they ARE ready, either, and there's a lot of pressure in that direction. Good sex ed should be giving students a foundation from which to resist both of those things.

[jerril]

However, I think that 'it's okay to NOT HAVE SEX' is a vital message to include any sex education class. Part of letting them make an informed decision is countering outside pressure TO have sex, as well as removing the harmful ideas about sex being 'dirty'.

Oh sure, absolutely important - but I don't think you're being a Devils Advocate here, you're arguing for "normal" sex ed.

[touchstone.livejournal.com]

Whoops - missed this reply, sorry!

Well, mainly I...hmm. How to put this. There's this thing that happens when one group puts forward a really stupid idea, and otherwise right-thinking people (in their haste to shoot down the stupid idea) make collateral damage out of some reasonable ideas in the middle ground (or even their own cause). I see this happen a lot with evolution arguments, in which scientists trying to out-shout Creationist wackos end up losing the actual message of what science is all about because they've been lured into short absolute statements instead of nuance. The conditionals get washed out and replaced with absolutes, and then you're back to dogma.

Abstinence is a great idea for a lot of teens; it's a bad idea for others. It's a bad idea to expect or demand it from ALL teens, but unfortunately that conceptual shorthand goes to work and 'abstinence doesn't work for everyone' quickly becomes 'abstinence doesn't work'. The arguments used to shoot down abstinence-only sex ed (it's unrealistic; teens are going to have sex and pretending they won't is stupid) will, if not carefully made, ALSO reinforce the idea 'all NORMAL teens have sex; if you're a teen and don't want to have sex yet you're a loser and a freak'. We need to make a deliberate effort not to do that.

Abstinence works just fine for a bunch of folks, and we shouldn't be discouraging them from it in the process of making sure that both they and all of their non-abstinent peers are armed with solid, grounded facts about sex.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

I think we need to emphasise that it's people's choice what they do with their own bodies - and make them comfortable with THEIR decision, whatever that decision is.

[allthepettylies.livejournal.com]

In highschool, here in america, there was a poll taken in my freshman JROTC class of how many students considered themselves virgins. Almost everyone raised their hand.

Then the question was asked, how many have had either anal or oral sex.

About half of the students who claimed to be virgins raised their hands for that one.


*headdesk*


Eta:

What really boggles my mind is how many people were willing to admit to having some form of sex. Meh. Me? I'm not shy about it, but it seems that having sex young is taboo here.

/endrant.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Oral sex I can argue - but it'd be a damn damn damn poor argument.

Seriously, to claim virginity with that level of intimate contact? Self-delluional, lying, or seriously ignorant


Now see, if someone asked that in a highschool class full of 16 year olds when i was 16 I'd be AMAZED if you could find someone who would admit to being a virgin :)

[lilisonna.livejournal.com]

I called myself a virgin when I was just engaging in oral sex. But I also didn't think that I wasn't engaging in sex. I was having sex; I simply wasn't having intercourse, and that was the distinction I drew for virginity.

It's worth noting that I didn't CARE about being a virgin or not. I just had a healthy desire to not get pregnant, avoid STDs, and didn't want to deal with intercourse in high school.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

It's all so variable. I don't know where the line is. Personally I draw levels of virginity rather than one staple of virginity

[home-of-usher.livejournal.com]

What really boggles my mind is how many people were willing to admit to having some form of sex.
Willing? or unwilling to admit it. I don't think there's anything wrong with people willing to admit they've had sex even if they are young. I think there is something wrong with making young people who don't know what to decide for themselves that something is so wrong or taboo that they can't make any sort of educated judgment for themselves. This leads to just feeling horrible/dirty/wrong/sick/scared etc for trying to figure out what to do with themselves. Any kind of exploration into what the body does or what it means is either twisted into doing it because it IS wrong and taboo, or done badly and re-enforces the bad experience just because the individual doesn't know what to do. No win there with that one. No person should be put through feeling that way no matter what the reason. More understanding on all levels is needed.
[/endrant.2]
I wish I'd had more/better sex ed as a teen. I had to find out more through Biology class, fiction books (not romance novels) and Psychology class as to how the mind, body and emotional state works in all that business. I was well aware of what was going on by the time I was 18 and with my Fiance for the first time.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Well the point is in some of these "no talky about sex" areas - the repression belt et al. And more understanding in the repression belt is certainly needed - but not going to happen in our lifetime

You TOTALLY wouldn't get it, like, in the Valley, sex is like, y'know, soooo not the hang up. :P (As a left coast liberal, you're probably everything the repression belt is afraid of :P)


I wish that not only would sex ed be comprehensive and unembarrassed, but also teach kids how to have GOOD sex, not just the mechanics

[home-of-usher.livejournal.com]

You TOTALLY wouldn't get it, like, in the Valley, sex is like, y'know, soooo not the hang up. :P (As a left coast liberal, you're probably everything the repression belt is afraid of :P)

*smacks you around with a magazine for the accent* :P you know, I'm moving to SF pretty soon. Gonna be living with gnarlycranium for a while. So I'll be up front and center on what goes on in the valley. That place I imagine either fine tunes or breaks a person's gaydar. Here's hoping I can survive without my Euthanatos running for the hills. that reminds me. gnarly and I have to put together a better Changeling game than what the books say. Techno controlled it certainly isn't.

Sex ed teach you good sex? that would then require instructor demonstration and practice wouldn't it? like that is ever going to happen. That's as mythical as realistic porno with actual plot.