Grrrr do i have to reach for my slapping haddock?

[sparkindarkness]

It's related to WoW but not really a WoW issue.

See, our guild has an odd leadership at present. The GM, for various reasons, logs on once a month, if that. After much wrangling the guild is actually run by the three officers: S, L and I (errr, letter initials make it hard - by I, I mean ME). Of the three S and I do most of the guild running (promotions, demotions, raiding etc) while L, the tech wizard, sorts out vent, forum access etc but isn't too active in game. There are then a few Deputies who hold the fort and handle various issues, lead the odd raid etc, but most of the admin and running falls into S's and my hands.

Our guild is friendly, non-hardcore, 90% pve, but nothing forced and no quotas or demands or anything. Generally casual and not needing much screaming and emo-ness. Dictates from on high are not the order of the day nor are much chewing out and drill sergeanting. It's just not the way we are. Of course you have to ask people to do stuff sometimes - like can you please be quiet on vent while we explain the tactics, the loot is going here because of the following rules, we're going to organise this raid today, no you didn't get in the raid because X number of people signed before you and you're not a speshul speshul snowflake who should get ultra priority. No, we can't go to that raid today because we don't have a tank and can't pull one out of our arses (though it would be a nice feat *STRRRRRAAAAIN* oh look! A Dwarf Warrior! Thank gods it wasn't a Draenei!)

Generally this goes fine. I say "look it's like this..." people listen, say ok, grumble a little then say ok.

Now here's the problem. That is how 99% of the guild react to me 80% of the time. But not everyone does the same with S. In fact S gets twice the grief with people bitching and moaning and, more often, ignoring S constantly. In short (and to sound much more hardcore than we actually are) they give S no respect despite the huge amount of work S puts in to the guild. L gets more respect and he's hardly online, let alone matches what she does. So does C, S's closest DEPUTY.

Why is this? Well, I can't say for certain, but here's a possible hint - S is a woman. L and C (and obviously me) are men. It's the only thing I can think of because she gets the same treatement from most the other members of the guild as I do - just these odd individuals. Which leaves us witha question of what to do.

Personally I'd slap down or kick them - but S doesn't want to kick them because they are GENERALLY good people, good players and generally good fun - so long as S doesn't want them to do anything.

As to slap down... well, I want to smack them about and tell them S deserves better and when they pull shit like this where I can see it I want to ride in and ask what the problem is and why are the giving her so much grief.... but how can I? I mean, I want they shouldn't give her grief and they should respect her because she works hard for the guild, she puts in the effort, she's smart and clever and a damn good leader and an officer an generally deserves it. They shouldn't respect her because Sparky, a man, has told them they have to.

Which is the problem. If I go in their haddocks swinging, Equally Large Python (heeee) trained to kill and Hounds a-growling then even if they do behave and stop giving S a hard time it will be because I have said so, not because it is what she is due.


So how does a man intervene to make other man give a woman the respect she deserves WITHOUT that respect only stemming from the man's intervention?

Comments

[stormcat.livejournal.com]

Hm. Off the top of my head, by showing her respect and modeling the behaviour for them. If they see you doing it...?

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

Honesty, in my experience any guy who's got the notion of women being inferior ingrained into them isn't going to give it up. I suppose it's possible they're not consciously aware of how sexist they're being, and pointing it out could help, but I wouldn't take any bets on that.

[snuck.livejournal.com]

Reading this is bringing back to the surface some key gripes for me, about geeks, inclusiveness/exclusiveness, and sexual discrimination.

See, I'm a geek. I play MMOs, I GM/DM and play various RPGs, I read sci fi and I play fight. I've been working as a high end project manager in the largest employer of electrical engineers in Australia, in the most techical and IT savvy projects and roles. I make my own cat-5 cables and can custom build my own PC.

But because I'm a girl, apparently within certain groups, none of that matters.

It doesn't matter that I can out geek them, it doesn't matter that I know how to do something. Apparently my ponytail means I should be told, usually in a loud voice, how to do it, in over the top jargon, to make the teller more self important. Thankfully these eedjits I tend to shoot down (I used to tolerate politely, but that got dull)....and walk away.

Part of me looks at geeks (nerds actually, but the distinction is minor to non-geeks)... and they way they can react to anything outside their own very limited definition of 'norm'... they are ruthless, nasty, provocative and aggressive about defending their very limited version of group/social definition.

And they complain about bullied themselves, but I've found that they escalate teh aggression factor faster than most other subgroups - and in doing so bring about aggression back. AND... they are more likely to judge unfairly and with limited information than the wider population...

Who is the bigger bully? The average person being a bit geek thick? Or the geeks themselves rounding on a non-standard geek?

Hrm.

[mrmeval.livejournal.com]

Pull out their spine and put it on display? I'd be willing to lose people over that as it's a hot button.

[meridae.livejournal.com]

Personally, I only shit night elves.

And if I had been S, I wouldn't have actually said whether I was male or female - that's the great thing about WoW, you can't actually tell (I know one married couple who met on WoW and it took them months and quite a few phone calls to convince the other they they were the genders they said they were) who's a girl and who's a boy. I run mostly female characters (not a conscious choice but my subconscious is working there somewhere) but even so most players presume I'm male. When I play my cross dressing bisexual male character (he wears little red dresses) they just get confused (and sometimes abusive which I think is funny cos I then hit on them big time).

Some guys just can't handle the fact that girls actually do like playing computer games too (I don't know why it's suprising - a game like WoW is amazingly appealing to the female brain, especially the role playing side of it).

[harald387.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't have actually said whether I was male or female

This is a lot harder when Ventrilo, Teamspeak, or in-game voice chat come into the equation.

I've actually been mistaken for a female player in several online games (with some people saying 'but you're so nice and polite!' when I try to convince them otherwise - apparently that makes me a girl?), until my baritone hits the microphone. That usually convinces them.

[jerril]

This is a lot harder when Ventrilo, Teamspeak, or in-game voice chat come into the equation.

Unless you're me. Then, for some reason people assume you're just an adolescent boy with a particularly unfortunate voice.

True stories:

I was given an "Honorary Guy" membership card in highschool.

My first guild (no vent/TS/voicechat) assumed I was a gay man and had no problem with that. They suffered brain hemmorages when they found out I was a girl playing a male tauren.

My current guild took some convincing of my femaleness, even over TS.

[buddykat.livejournal.com]

So how does a man intervene to make other man give a woman the respect she deserves WITHOUT that respect only stemming from the man's intervention?

You don't. You have another woman do it. As prominently and with as much humiliation heaped on them as possible.

[amynnah.livejournal.com]

Ooo ooo ooo! I'd do it!

"You WILL listen to her or you'll get a damned Bear dropped on you! RAWR!"

[suryaofvulcan.livejournal.com]

So how does a man intervene to make other man give a woman the respect she deserves WITHOUT that respect only stemming from the man's intervention?

You don't. You can't make one person respect another. They have to earn it for themselves, although it may be impossible for S to earn the respect of these particular individuals.

As someone else said, the only thing you can do is lead by example. If you give S the respect she deserves, then hopefully others will follow.

[zero_pixel_count]

...it depends on the person? See, we had a case of this back when we were first running Shadovald, and all it actually took was it being pointed out. Which some of the lads did, iirc. And then the lad in question went 'oh!' and readjusted his thinking, because he was in general a bright lad who just had this particular blind spot.

Other people are just morons.

[thisdaydreamer.livejournal.com]

When they start pulling that crap, ask them why. Point out that they don't react the same way to you.

[ephemera.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure that you *can*, save for making absolutely sure that you're backing S up.

(if they whine to you about a decision S makes, you just repeat S's decision and make it clear that you support and respect S, and if that's enough, and the same individual does that enough ties *maybe* point out that it's kind of rude to S to always ask for a second opinion when they know you're *always* going to back S up ... I've had this in a work context - people who wouldn't accept Rule X from me / other female staff, but took it like a lamb when the exact same wods came from a male colleague. It's infuriating, but I've yet to work out how to control someone's thoughts well enough to wring that out of them.)

Not knowing the game, is it an environment where you can easly 'big up' S's contributions?

[amynnah.livejournal.com]

I don't think you can... S would have to "grow a pair," as it were, to really put the dingbats in line.

I've never run a Guild (thank goodness), but I was an Officer for a time, and I've been offered it. EoN's had many female officers, as had HoR. The women constantly have to tell the boys where to go, how fast, and in what vehicle if they start grumbling, but they eventually got the point (this is more in HoR than EoN... the core-men of EoN are a highly respectable, caring, non-drama group). It took a couple months, but the boys eventually stopped grumbling.

Also... when I first join a Guild, I leave my gender anonymous. If I'm playing a female, I act like a female (RP, not PVE). If I play a guy, I act like a guy. Leaves them confused, but they listen to me in PVE situations because I know how to play (must mean I'm a dood...).

[brownkitty.livejournal.com]

I have a suggestion but I don't know whether it would work.

What happens if you stop answering any questions yourself, except for "Talk to S, she knows what's going on" ? Simply refuse to help them, and let them land in the shit if they don't listen and talk to her respectfully.

Maybe plant some other people to point and laugh. "Man, you should've talked to S, not only was that a kick-ass raid but she knew where this really cool artifact was!"

And when they grumble something about not listening to anything that doesn't have a dick, have their peers administer some social correction. "Hey, whatever works for you, but if you want to be a dumbass and miss out on the good raids, that's your loss."

It'd be rough on S. Proving that you can kick ass and take names always is. Thing is, YOU can't prove that SHE can kick ass and takes names. SHE will have to use her own haddocks.

[drharper.livejournal.com]

You should (figuratively) pull them aside and calmly call them on it. One of the good things to come out of the Open Source Boobs fiasco was this post on how not to be "That Guy". It also details what other guys can do when they catch their fellow men being "That Guy".

If that doesn't work, join S in applying haddocks to their heads. :)