On shaky ground again

[sparkindarkness]

Again, be careful where you tread and make sure your journals are backed up because LJ is purging again.

I realise some people have said it's not LJ's fault, that it's just the law in the US but I have 2 answers to that:

They could have actually done more than instantly suspending the whole journal. A warning. A cease and desist. Locking down that post.

Ponderosa (one of the deleted), has said that there is actually no reason to believe that the picture contained the underaged: http://www.greatestjournal.com/community/fandomtossed/45060.html?thread=526852#t526852

To quote her directly: "The drawing that landed me the suspension was of Fred and George wanking eachother. While one of the twins WAS wearing a school tie, they do not look any younger than the adult characters I regularly draw. No where in the post or title description (to my recollection, as the entry was deleted) are the characters ages mentioned, and I certainly never suggested that they are underage."

So how shaky is this ground? Any of you have fic or pictures up where you haven't explicitly mentioned the ages of those depicted?. I know I do.

Anything a random group of fanatics may claim represents the underaged? Remember, LJ doesn't do it's own investogating, any random group of crazed fanatics will do.


ETA: Am I the only one leery about the timing?

They tried to have their purge... but then loads of people were up in arms about it and it was JUST BEFORE THEY SOLD THE LIFETIME JOURNALS. So they apologised, mea culpla, made nice... then launched their lifetime journals, sold them

And went back to purging again.

Comments

[makarov.livejournal.com]

wouldn't suprise me it the anti's try to get rid of some of the communities i'm a member of

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

it really feels like they're tryingt to push us out

[amynnah.livejournal.com]

More purges? Oh, joy... -_-;;;

I'll link back to this on my own journal to spread the word, o Spark.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Aye, imagine how my heart leaped.

Thanks, we need to pass the word - they only changed their tune last time when everyone went up in arms

[makarov.livejournal.com]

whats next ? a POGROM ?

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Aye, and against what? Because it's not even just paedophilia that is under attack this time.

I know I have about a dozen characters that I've not mentioned the age of. Sure, none of them are under 18, but I've not explicitly said that. Does that leave me on the purge list?

It certainly leaves me on shaky ground

[touchstone.livejournal.com]

Tom's gaze roamed down the tight, muscled back of his youthful but decidedly major companion, secure in the knowledge that the other was of legal age to consent, even under the backwards and outdated standards of the area where they found themselves, to help make real the sordid fantasy that was forming itself even now in Tom's mind.

"Hey," he said, suggestively. "How about you and me go out and...vote for that anti-censorship law?"

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Porny protest! the best kind

[baranduyn.livejournal.com]

You know, when the people who supposedly run this thing can't tell the difference between fictional characters and actual child pornography...well, it's worrying.

You over at greatestjournal or journalfen, cookie? I'm Baranduyn everywhere. Ask me about my shamefully neglected myspace account with the mad cool friends' list

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

It's very worrying and it doesn't do those who actually do fight child porn any favours

I'm not yet but I may have to start one and at least doubling over my posts

[wonapalei.livejournal.com]

You might want to consider InsaneJournal as well. It's hard to get a JF account, and both JF and GJ have frequent server issues. IJ seems fairly stable, and the owner has been quite welcoming to fans who fled there after the initial Strikethrough debacle.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

I'm, thinking of starting several journals and crossposting between them all - that way if one goes down in a blaze of fundies, I'm still protected

[allthepettylies.livejournal.com]

I received a warning from eljay today about them suspending my account.

The thing is, I haven't posted anything except in alphabetsanon and even thats not worth suspending me.

It was poetry for darwin's sake! and even then, there was nothing illegal contained within.

This sucks.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Do you even know why you received a warning? Did they give you any clue at all?

[logophilos.livejournal.com]

Are you saying you got a threat of suspension for doing nothing? That's a hell of a lot more worrying than this fanartist thing.

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

Ugh. I am the last person on earth to love and support porn, but I can at least recognize the difference between fantasy and reality.

You know what worries me the most here though? That statement made last time about "the kind of community we want to build" or however they put it.

I'm not sure I like the kind of community they seem to be building now.

[buddykat.livejournal.com]

That statement made last time about "the kind of community we want to build" or however they put it.

That worried me too.

And no, sparkindarkness, you aren't the only one who's leery about the timing. Makes me *very* glad that I listened to my instincts and did NOT buy a permanent account.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Me too. I was going to but after streikthrough it was a case of severe wariness

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

It is frightening they can't tell the difference.

I can see the kind of community they're trying to build - and it worries me.

[logophilos.livejournal.com]

Actually, it's the other artist that drew the Weasley Twin image - ponderosa's picture was Harry/Snape.

The permanent suspension and banning was over the top, if you take the image in isolation. They said at the time of the latest announcement, I seem to recall, that they would look at the entire journal before they did that. From what I've been reading, there may have been cause for concerns with other content. But even so, this was ridiculous.

*However*. LJ is a really stupid place to post graphic, pornographic art even when the subjects are unequivocally adults (and in this case, those claiming that Harry *could* have been 18 are being disingenous - he's not eighteen during the books at any point, the picture takes place at the school so it's not an AU. It's open for any reasonable person to interpret this as sex with a person under 18 and that's the relevant age for the laws under which LJ operates and the TOS it has established.) If people want to keep using LJ, they need to be careful and discreet. I am horrified at people reposting that picture in an open news post with no warnings for NSFW content - I think they forget that not everyone accepts their kink, or understands it, or even if they're sympathetic, may not want graphic content shoved in their faces like that (I certainly don't).

Yet another example of HP fans just not getting how nutso they look to a lot of people, and failing to understand it's other people who make the laws/rules, not them.

[wonapalei.livejournal.com]

I can't seem to find where I saw Ponderosa's art reposted, but I don't remember noticing anything in it that showed that it was definitely at the school. It was a bed, which could be anywhere. And while Harry's clearly quite young in it (on a "wizards can live to 150" scale), god knows there's plenty of fic and art that shows him returning to Hogwarts as the Defense professor immediately or shortly after defeating Voldemort in his seventh year. Was there some context that I'm missing/not remembering?

And then, of course, there's the Q&A that everyone's been posting, reposting, and flinging in 6A's teeth:

jssangel: In the eyes of Six Apart, is Harry Potter Fanfic, featuring an under 18 Harry an example of child pornography?
What about illustrations designed to accompany the same?
barakb25: No. Child pornogaphy is fairly well defined by law and I have not seen any reports of it in HP Fanfic.

Despite the weasel-language of "not seeing any reports", the first word and sentence is a pretty unambiguous contradiction of their current actions.

All of this is not to contradict your statement that HP fans can definitely look nutso, and I certainly agree that posting something like that publically is not a good, intelligent, or courteous thing to do. But even the rational fans are up in arms over this, not because they think 6A has no right to make rules, but because 6A is not clearly informing their users of the rules and abiding by them as stated.

[logophilos.livejournal.com]

The image was reporsted (without permission) here (NSFW, obviously):
http://news.livejournal.com/102095.html?thread=54408911#t54408911

Given the background and the size differential, it's coded as Harry being at school as a pupil. It may not be definitive, but it's a grey area. Which is why LJ should have been more cautious.
The artist apparently posted other questionable material in her journal, I don't know if that was also part of it even if not stated. We won't find out, I guess.

The fans can get up in arms all the like. LJ won't back down, for reasons I've explained here:
http://logophilos.livejournal.com/157938.html

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Which is another point, people HAVE actuallyu asked 6apart whether HP fanfic would constitute child porn. People TRIED to find out what the guidelines were. They TRIEd to find out what the rules were. 6apart gave them an answer.... and then reneged on it.

Which means no matter what they say, I don't know what the rules will be tomorrow

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Aye, I've looked through the images now and finally linked each to each person.

It was extreme - to ban the journal, no cease and desist?

As to discretion, this is where I worry. I mean, when it comes to pornographic and explicit, I haven't yet seen either them post a picture that is more explicit than anything I write about. At least one of them even friendslocked their journal, which is more than I do - short of not posting it at all I worry how much more discrete she can be - and am I not being discrete enough for LJ's standards. I don't (can't draw) I just write - but is that a distinction LJ will draw? I don't think any of my guys can ambiguously considered under 18, but at the same time I'm not in the habit of expressly stating their ages and I don't know if someone else will interpret it that way

If LJ would send cease and disist, warnings or other communication first I may feel more stable but at the minute I just don't know - and it worries me. I don't know if the rules have narrowed down enough now to cover what I write and what many on my friendslist write

The people who posted the picture in the news thread were frankly disgustingly wrong and doing everything that gives us the bad reputation we have. I have nothing but contempt for the idiot who posted that into the news comments - anyone could see that kids, people at work, simply people who did not want to see it. It was unnacceptable.

[sapphybelle.livejournal.com]

well, LJ/6A is a business... of course they're not just going to do a 180 and be all nice and apologetic and reinstating accounts unless they have some kind of alterior motive.

That said, good luck Mr Sparky... I'd hate to lose one of the funniest, smartest and most awesome people on my friend list.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Yes, that seems to be the case. It's typical of business to be that shortsighted and destroy long term goodwill for shortterm gain

I think I am going to juggl;e several journals and have reserve journals set up

[girl-working.livejournal.com]

Shit... Pond got kicked off? She did some art for me once for windiain...

These purges are stupid... I can understand REAL porn sites - but fandom? ffs...

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

It's a witch hunt, pure and simple

[elrohana.livejournal.com]

Actually, I'm going to disagree. Porn is porn, and porn involving characters from a kids book (however much we adults like to think its not a kids book) is still child porn in my head, and I don't want to accidentally run across it on somewhere like LJ. I appreciate most of this stuff is probably f-locked or community-locked, so I'm unlikely to, but that said, I was recently friended by someone I don't know, and there are a couple of images on his user-info page that, had I looked at it at work, would have got me sacked.

And before anyone screams prude, I'm not (though I don't intend to back this up with wild tales from my youth as my friends read this and some of them might be shocked), I just like my porn where I can control it, and besides I don't think people can really complain when LJ already warned us all weeks ago that there is certain stuff they will NOT tolerate.

As many people said when the original purge happened, if you don't like how LJ is changing (to save itself from prosecution), then find a new home that does suit you. Vote with your feet. But in all honesty, if you look at how most of the other 'big name' sites are going, it will only be independent companies that will host anything even faintly non-mainstream within the next couple of years.

I'm not saying LJ are right, but when it comes to child-porn or child-fan-fic-porn, I really can see their point.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

There are a few problems - first of all artwork isn't in the same category as porn because no children are hurt - yes, people do make an effort to ensure people aren't exposed to it or any kind of porn and they do - this was friendslocked and under cuts

Secondly - the porn isn't kiddie. Really, I saw the picture and there's no special reason you'd consider it to be undrraged. It makes me worry for some of my fic, I haven't expressly stated the ages of many people in my fic - if someone, especially someone who's not inclined to be fond of my slash anyway, reads my journal and decides all my people are kids am I in the same boat

thirdly: Pornish pixies was reinstated after strikethrough with the same content it has - meaning they told the community it was acceptable... then they deleted her for pictures that are pretty standard on that community. They moved the goal posts and we don't knwo waht they're going to strike for next. They did wanr us weeks ago there was stuff they wouldn't tolerate - and HP fanfic and the pictrues in pornish pixies were in the tolerate box - they did tolerate them.