![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
sparkindarknessI have done the worldbuilding bit on Seelie justice, now I just need the Unseelie part. But it makes no sense and my brain is hurting
Unfortunately Ilatheril is not being co-operative, in fact, he is sulking, completely and utterly. So much so that I’m going to have Sitharensor ambush him in a discourse because you just CAN’T write a guide to Unseelie thinking.
Sitharensor rubbed his head trying to force some clarity to his thoughts. he was almost tempted to sit and meditate - but Ilatheril hadn’t given him anything to meditate about yet. The Seelie raised his violet eyes and spiked his Unseelie husband with a fierce glare - a wasted effort since the Unseelie was stubbornly looking the other way.
“Ilatheril,” Sitharensor’s eyes narrowed as his husband tensed but didn’t bother to turn and acknowledged him. “Gods burn you, Ilatheril, at least try to meet me half way!”
The Unseelie jerked round angrily, “Meet you half way, Sith? Haven’t I read your fool books of etiquette and listened to all your immensely silly lectures? Aren’t I being all polite and stuffy and restrained in your precious court among all those oh-so-pure people who don’t have a personality between them?”
Sitharensor sighed and made the effort to allow some of his frustration to show on his face past his courtly mask. “You are, and I both appreciate it and applaud it. You are studying and learning about Seelie culture and philosophies even when you disagree with them.”
“Which I always do,” Ilatheril added, smugly.
“Of course not, you have a lot to learn, I can hardly expect you to be enlightened yet.” Sitharensor’s answering barb was almost automatic. He quickly held up a hand before they could be sidetracked with pointless, though amusing, sniping. “No, you have made use of a range of resources to help you learn of us. But there are no Unseelie books of etiquette, no Unseelie culture guides and the closest I can find to any kind of book on Unseelie philosophy makes so many assumptions about the reader’s knowledge and inclinations as to be unreadable. You are my only source of information on the Unseelie and you will not speak to me!” Sitharensor’s hand cracked heavily on the small table in front of them, upending a wine goblet.
Ilatheril blinked at the spreading dark puddle, amazed that the Seelie could display such emotion. He slowly took a seat opposite his husband, trying to collect his thoughts. “I don’t try to hide things from you, Sith, it’s just the way things are.” Sitharensor’s eyes narrowed again and Ilatheril threw up his hands in frustration. “Why do you think there aren’t any books, Sith?”
“Illiteracy?” Sitharensor dropped in, recovering some of his calmness. “After all, you have still failed to master more than one syllable of my name. You must practice more - Sith-ah-REN-sor”
“Because we don’t organise everything and categorise everything.” Ilatheril growled, refusing to be drawn. “We don’t put everything into words - some things just can’t be put into words, not really, not truly. The meaning isn’t passed on, or is lost, or slanted - there just aren’t enough words or good enough words out there.”
Sitharensor frowned, more pensive than frustrated. “I am trying to understand the Unseelie system of... laws?” Ilatheril grimaced. “Perhaps not laws. But code of conduct... mores of behaviour? Sense of justice?” Ilatheril sighed and shook his head. Sitharensor persisted, “I know you have a system of justice because it was the central theme of your honour speech at our wedding.”
“Honour speech? System?” Ilatheril groaned. “Do you have to Seelify everything?!”
It was Sitharensor’s turn to throw up his hands in frustration. “Fine, tell me in your words, Ilatheril - what is Unseelie justice?”
Ilatherile gave him an odd look, like he had just asked what the sky was. “Justice is recognising right from wrong. being just is doing right, avoiding wrong, stopping wrong and making wrong right.”
“At last, some progress. Now all you need to do is define those terms.” The Seelie said with a wry smile.
“Why?” Ilatheril sat back with a grin.
“Why? Because the terms mean nothing without definition. They are just words.” The Seelie replied.
“And adding more words makes this better?” Ilatheril countered. “You already know what that they mean. Why do you need to define them?”
“But what if my definition is different from yours?” The Seelie asked,
“Then that is your prerogative.” Ilatheril shrugged. “Why does it have to be the same? It isn’t the same among the Unseelie.”
“But you must have words to describe your right and wrong to someone else?” Sitharensor asked, trying to drag some attempt at a definition from Ilatheril.
“Why? Why do you want to describe your sense of right and wrong to someone else? To justify yourself? We are free, we do not need to justify ourselves to anyone but ourselves. To explain ourselves? We are free, we don’t owe anyone explanations. To teach other people? Who are you to decide you know what is right and wrong better than they do?”
“But someone can do evil and tell everyone that it is right. If right is not defined then the concept can be abused.” The Seelie ventured.
“Unseelie do not justify ourselves - we are free.” Ilatheril grinned, enjoying the Seelie’s irritation. “We do what we will, and if another thinks what we will is wrong then they can take steps to make it right, if they wish. If we do something we consider is evil then we accept that what we have done is evil or that we are evil. Free beings don’t need lies - not to others and certainly not to ourselves. We still don‘t need to define our morality. Besides, you have laws but seem to spend half your time using the loop holes in those laws so you can disobey them - so you can do evil and call it good.”
“If you adhere to the laws of our people you cannot do evil! If an action is permitted by law then it is good.” Sitharensor replied hotly.
“See? My point is made. Your definition has become more important than reality. You don’t need definitions to tell you what you already know - you only need them so you can give yourself enough wiggle room with your conscience when you do bad things.” Ilatheril shook his head, almost saddened by it.
“That is your problem, Ilatheril, you read the words but never look beyond the surface, never look at the principles that are behind them. That is why formal Seelie is a hundred times as big as formal Unseelie - because you don’t have the language to understand depth and with that lack you have given up on understanding altogether! I need you define it so I can understand it truly! ” Sitharensor nearly growled with frustration.
“No, Sith, you already understand it.” Ilatheril tapped the Seelie’s nose chidingly, just to make him growl again. Seelie didn‘t growl enough in his opinion. “You understand right. You understand wrong. You understand how to right wrongs. You understand that people have different... standards and opinions on right and wrong. You KNOW all this already.”
“I do not.” Sitharensor shook his head so vigorously his hair flew. “You say these things but I still do not understand them. I have listened to you but I cannot think of a word to write about them.” He threw his pen down in disgust.
“No, you can’t explain them or define them. You can’t put them in neat little categories and label each one and rank them and then write a neat little essay about them. You can’t Seelify them.”
Ilatheril stood and poured himself another glass of wine. “That is what you need to understand, husband. And maybe I have it easy, maybe it is easier for chaos to understand order than for order to understand chaos. But if you want to understand the Unseelie, you must understand us on Unseelie terms through Unseelie eyes. You will never understand us if you keep trying to squeeze Unseelie principles into Seelie systems.”
Sitharensor sipped his wine meditatively. “Just as you will never understand the Seelie if you just learn the letter of our rules without understanding the depth behind them.”
“Your rules have depth? I thought they were shallow and pointless?” The Unseelie frowned and stared into his glass. “Kind of like this wine. You’re the lords of all faerie and you can’t get better booze than this?”
Sitharensor frowned into his own cup, swilling the wine around his mouth meditatively. “Surprisingly, you are right. I shall mark it on the calendar.” He rose to his feet gracefully. “Come, this is one wrong we can both right.”
“Great, I’ll get my sword.”
Sitharensor smiled. Perhaps he would begin to understand the Unseelie one day.
Unfortunately Ilatheril is not being co-operative, in fact, he is sulking, completely and utterly. So much so that I’m going to have Sitharensor ambush him in a discourse because you just CAN’T write a guide to Unseelie thinking.
Sitharensor rubbed his head trying to force some clarity to his thoughts. he was almost tempted to sit and meditate - but Ilatheril hadn’t given him anything to meditate about yet. The Seelie raised his violet eyes and spiked his Unseelie husband with a fierce glare - a wasted effort since the Unseelie was stubbornly looking the other way.
“Ilatheril,” Sitharensor’s eyes narrowed as his husband tensed but didn’t bother to turn and acknowledged him. “Gods burn you, Ilatheril, at least try to meet me half way!”
The Unseelie jerked round angrily, “Meet you half way, Sith? Haven’t I read your fool books of etiquette and listened to all your immensely silly lectures? Aren’t I being all polite and stuffy and restrained in your precious court among all those oh-so-pure people who don’t have a personality between them?”
Sitharensor sighed and made the effort to allow some of his frustration to show on his face past his courtly mask. “You are, and I both appreciate it and applaud it. You are studying and learning about Seelie culture and philosophies even when you disagree with them.”
“Which I always do,” Ilatheril added, smugly.
“Of course not, you have a lot to learn, I can hardly expect you to be enlightened yet.” Sitharensor’s answering barb was almost automatic. He quickly held up a hand before they could be sidetracked with pointless, though amusing, sniping. “No, you have made use of a range of resources to help you learn of us. But there are no Unseelie books of etiquette, no Unseelie culture guides and the closest I can find to any kind of book on Unseelie philosophy makes so many assumptions about the reader’s knowledge and inclinations as to be unreadable. You are my only source of information on the Unseelie and you will not speak to me!” Sitharensor’s hand cracked heavily on the small table in front of them, upending a wine goblet.
Ilatheril blinked at the spreading dark puddle, amazed that the Seelie could display such emotion. He slowly took a seat opposite his husband, trying to collect his thoughts. “I don’t try to hide things from you, Sith, it’s just the way things are.” Sitharensor’s eyes narrowed again and Ilatheril threw up his hands in frustration. “Why do you think there aren’t any books, Sith?”
“Illiteracy?” Sitharensor dropped in, recovering some of his calmness. “After all, you have still failed to master more than one syllable of my name. You must practice more - Sith-ah-REN-sor”
“Because we don’t organise everything and categorise everything.” Ilatheril growled, refusing to be drawn. “We don’t put everything into words - some things just can’t be put into words, not really, not truly. The meaning isn’t passed on, or is lost, or slanted - there just aren’t enough words or good enough words out there.”
Sitharensor frowned, more pensive than frustrated. “I am trying to understand the Unseelie system of... laws?” Ilatheril grimaced. “Perhaps not laws. But code of conduct... mores of behaviour? Sense of justice?” Ilatheril sighed and shook his head. Sitharensor persisted, “I know you have a system of justice because it was the central theme of your honour speech at our wedding.”
“Honour speech? System?” Ilatheril groaned. “Do you have to Seelify everything?!”
It was Sitharensor’s turn to throw up his hands in frustration. “Fine, tell me in your words, Ilatheril - what is Unseelie justice?”
Ilatherile gave him an odd look, like he had just asked what the sky was. “Justice is recognising right from wrong. being just is doing right, avoiding wrong, stopping wrong and making wrong right.”
“At last, some progress. Now all you need to do is define those terms.” The Seelie said with a wry smile.
“Why?” Ilatheril sat back with a grin.
“Why? Because the terms mean nothing without definition. They are just words.” The Seelie replied.
“And adding more words makes this better?” Ilatheril countered. “You already know what that they mean. Why do you need to define them?”
“But what if my definition is different from yours?” The Seelie asked,
“Then that is your prerogative.” Ilatheril shrugged. “Why does it have to be the same? It isn’t the same among the Unseelie.”
“But you must have words to describe your right and wrong to someone else?” Sitharensor asked, trying to drag some attempt at a definition from Ilatheril.
“Why? Why do you want to describe your sense of right and wrong to someone else? To justify yourself? We are free, we do not need to justify ourselves to anyone but ourselves. To explain ourselves? We are free, we don’t owe anyone explanations. To teach other people? Who are you to decide you know what is right and wrong better than they do?”
“But someone can do evil and tell everyone that it is right. If right is not defined then the concept can be abused.” The Seelie ventured.
“Unseelie do not justify ourselves - we are free.” Ilatheril grinned, enjoying the Seelie’s irritation. “We do what we will, and if another thinks what we will is wrong then they can take steps to make it right, if they wish. If we do something we consider is evil then we accept that what we have done is evil or that we are evil. Free beings don’t need lies - not to others and certainly not to ourselves. We still don‘t need to define our morality. Besides, you have laws but seem to spend half your time using the loop holes in those laws so you can disobey them - so you can do evil and call it good.”
“If you adhere to the laws of our people you cannot do evil! If an action is permitted by law then it is good.” Sitharensor replied hotly.
“See? My point is made. Your definition has become more important than reality. You don’t need definitions to tell you what you already know - you only need them so you can give yourself enough wiggle room with your conscience when you do bad things.” Ilatheril shook his head, almost saddened by it.
“That is your problem, Ilatheril, you read the words but never look beyond the surface, never look at the principles that are behind them. That is why formal Seelie is a hundred times as big as formal Unseelie - because you don’t have the language to understand depth and with that lack you have given up on understanding altogether! I need you define it so I can understand it truly! ” Sitharensor nearly growled with frustration.
“No, Sith, you already understand it.” Ilatheril tapped the Seelie’s nose chidingly, just to make him growl again. Seelie didn‘t growl enough in his opinion. “You understand right. You understand wrong. You understand how to right wrongs. You understand that people have different... standards and opinions on right and wrong. You KNOW all this already.”
“I do not.” Sitharensor shook his head so vigorously his hair flew. “You say these things but I still do not understand them. I have listened to you but I cannot think of a word to write about them.” He threw his pen down in disgust.
“No, you can’t explain them or define them. You can’t put them in neat little categories and label each one and rank them and then write a neat little essay about them. You can’t Seelify them.”
Ilatheril stood and poured himself another glass of wine. “That is what you need to understand, husband. And maybe I have it easy, maybe it is easier for chaos to understand order than for order to understand chaos. But if you want to understand the Unseelie, you must understand us on Unseelie terms through Unseelie eyes. You will never understand us if you keep trying to squeeze Unseelie principles into Seelie systems.”
Sitharensor sipped his wine meditatively. “Just as you will never understand the Seelie if you just learn the letter of our rules without understanding the depth behind them.”
“Your rules have depth? I thought they were shallow and pointless?” The Unseelie frowned and stared into his glass. “Kind of like this wine. You’re the lords of all faerie and you can’t get better booze than this?”
Sitharensor frowned into his own cup, swilling the wine around his mouth meditatively. “Surprisingly, you are right. I shall mark it on the calendar.” He rose to his feet gracefully. “Come, this is one wrong we can both right.”
“Great, I’ll get my sword.”
Sitharensor smiled. Perhaps he would begin to understand the Unseelie one day.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-25 05:39 pm (UTC)Of course it makes the most sense to Jarrod though I think he tends to use Seelie type laws because he Likes wiggle room. Wiggle room in breaking rules is like... a hobby. A fun past time, while in his heart of hearts he's more about the chaos and his own deffinitions of right and wrong. he'll just pretend to adhere to the Rules so he can find the places and ways to bend them to his will.
Yay for twisty morals! Your seelie and Unseelie have a fun dynamic.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-12-01 09:38 pm (UTC)Wiggle room allows ALL kinds of evil - which is why in some ways the Unseelie are more moral or at least more honest
The Seelie and Unseelie snipe and give me headaches - but they are fun
(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-25 05:45 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-12-01 09:41 pm (UTC)Chaos, bueatiful, free, chaos, is opaque to those who refuse to embrace it