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sparkindarknessMainly for my own reference to try and get my head around this. I've been poking at Seelie justice and it's CHAOTIC. How can anything Seelie be chaotic? *Pokes Sitharensor with a stabby thing*
And of course, once you look at Seelie justice you have to look at Unseelie justice and that just ISN'T working at all since the whole thing is nearly a contradiction in terms and Ilatheril is just laughing at the very idea. I may have to set Sitharensor on him
I’m in a complete world building mode at the minute and it’s giving me a headache. Sitharensor is more than willing to indulge me at great and painful length about the intricacies of the Seelie system of justice.
The Seelie have no shortage of laws and rules. In fact, the rules for just about every situation and just to make sure there are absolutely no grey areas at all they have plenty of traditions and customs to make sure everyone behaves themselves appropriately. Seelie thinking being what it is, these traditions and customs have nearly as much actual authority as laws. Almost.
The Seelie system of laws is based on their feudal system of government. The High King (when he is Seelie. An Unseelie high king is assumed not to be capable of making laws and Seelie are only required to be polite to his... requests) makes laws (after taking advice) that bind all Seelie (most Seelie laws originate form the High King). The Great Houses create laws that govern all the Seelie in their area and the Noble Houses below them rule their vassals and local fae. Some laws come into being simply because a tradition has existed for so long that Seelie society treats it like a law and breaching it is considered as severe as breaking a law.
The Seelie system of laws is based on the duty you honourably owe your liege and greater Seelie society. At some point in all their lives all Seelie Sidhe will take an oath to their liege and to the Seelie in general to uphold the laws and traditions of the Seelie and observe the wishes of their liege (though the wording of the oath varies and they tend to be very long as cautious Seelie are careful to include as many loopholes as they can politely get away with).
This means that to break a law or a tradition isn’t just a matter of illegality - it is a matter of OATHBREAKING. Which to the fae -especially the Seelie Sidhe - is perhaps the worst possible offence.
It is essential to bear this in mind when considering the Seelie system of punishments for crimes - because in most cases there aren’t any. The Seelie has just broken oath and dishonoured themselves. That is already a horrendous punishment for most of the fae and even the smallest offence is likely to invite extreme ostracism and even voluntary exile. This means that in the vats majority of cases the punishment actually involves the Sidhe trying to redeem himself in the eyes of the Seelie to cleanse and restore his honour (which is HARD).
That generally involves 2 steps. If you have wronged someone in your offence (and, by inference, violated your oath to them) then they set a penalty based on how offended they are (it is considered rude and dishonourable to be disproportionately harsh. But it is also insulting to be too lenient - if a Sidhe sets a penalty that is extremely weak compared to the wrong done then that implies that the offending Sidhe’s honour is worthless - after all, if it takes only a small penalty to redeem the Sidhe it can’t have been worth much to begin with). This can result in exile, fines or quests or anything the wronged Sidhe can cook up.
The second part is often more arduous - the Sidhe must set his own penance to redeem his honour - after all no-one knows the value of your own honour. This can be anything from voluntary exile to epic quests to pledging vassalage to the Sidhe who were wronged. Naturally, if a Sidhe sets this too low he might as well find a small hole and hide there for the rest of eternity - after all that means he doesn’t value his OWN honour very highly - no-one else is giving it any worth. This usually goes very far the other way with ridiculously arduous penances being assumed by extremely proud Sidhe (excessively arrogant humility used to be very impressive but is beginning to cause much eye rolling).
It is only in extreme measures that a superior (or council of peers if necessary or if a superior doesn‘t feel like he had enough clout to act) will actually impose an actual sentence and there will be an actual judgement. This normally involves persistent offence (where the fae is considered to not actually give a damn about honour. This is rarer with Sidhe and usually applies to fae who are less... strict about honour) or when the fae is considered too dangerous to risk keeping around - usually resulting in banishment, the weakening or powers or, in extreme cases, execution (this actually only happens to the Unseelie - which is why many Unseelie races were decimated in the last war as the Seelie considered entire species of fae to be too dangerous to exist - or Sidhe who are too magically powerful to be bound and refuse to submit to any kind of control).
Result of all this? The punishment system of the Seelie is actually chaotic and entirely discretionary (as well as being highly weird with the criminal setting the sentence).
And of course, once you look at Seelie justice you have to look at Unseelie justice and that just ISN'T working at all since the whole thing is nearly a contradiction in terms and Ilatheril is just laughing at the very idea. I may have to set Sitharensor on him
I’m in a complete world building mode at the minute and it’s giving me a headache. Sitharensor is more than willing to indulge me at great and painful length about the intricacies of the Seelie system of justice.
The Seelie have no shortage of laws and rules. In fact, the rules for just about every situation and just to make sure there are absolutely no grey areas at all they have plenty of traditions and customs to make sure everyone behaves themselves appropriately. Seelie thinking being what it is, these traditions and customs have nearly as much actual authority as laws. Almost.
The Seelie system of laws is based on their feudal system of government. The High King (when he is Seelie. An Unseelie high king is assumed not to be capable of making laws and Seelie are only required to be polite to his... requests) makes laws (after taking advice) that bind all Seelie (most Seelie laws originate form the High King). The Great Houses create laws that govern all the Seelie in their area and the Noble Houses below them rule their vassals and local fae. Some laws come into being simply because a tradition has existed for so long that Seelie society treats it like a law and breaching it is considered as severe as breaking a law.
The Seelie system of laws is based on the duty you honourably owe your liege and greater Seelie society. At some point in all their lives all Seelie Sidhe will take an oath to their liege and to the Seelie in general to uphold the laws and traditions of the Seelie and observe the wishes of their liege (though the wording of the oath varies and they tend to be very long as cautious Seelie are careful to include as many loopholes as they can politely get away with).
This means that to break a law or a tradition isn’t just a matter of illegality - it is a matter of OATHBREAKING. Which to the fae -especially the Seelie Sidhe - is perhaps the worst possible offence.
It is essential to bear this in mind when considering the Seelie system of punishments for crimes - because in most cases there aren’t any. The Seelie has just broken oath and dishonoured themselves. That is already a horrendous punishment for most of the fae and even the smallest offence is likely to invite extreme ostracism and even voluntary exile. This means that in the vats majority of cases the punishment actually involves the Sidhe trying to redeem himself in the eyes of the Seelie to cleanse and restore his honour (which is HARD).
That generally involves 2 steps. If you have wronged someone in your offence (and, by inference, violated your oath to them) then they set a penalty based on how offended they are (it is considered rude and dishonourable to be disproportionately harsh. But it is also insulting to be too lenient - if a Sidhe sets a penalty that is extremely weak compared to the wrong done then that implies that the offending Sidhe’s honour is worthless - after all, if it takes only a small penalty to redeem the Sidhe it can’t have been worth much to begin with). This can result in exile, fines or quests or anything the wronged Sidhe can cook up.
The second part is often more arduous - the Sidhe must set his own penance to redeem his honour - after all no-one knows the value of your own honour. This can be anything from voluntary exile to epic quests to pledging vassalage to the Sidhe who were wronged. Naturally, if a Sidhe sets this too low he might as well find a small hole and hide there for the rest of eternity - after all that means he doesn’t value his OWN honour very highly - no-one else is giving it any worth. This usually goes very far the other way with ridiculously arduous penances being assumed by extremely proud Sidhe (excessively arrogant humility used to be very impressive but is beginning to cause much eye rolling).
It is only in extreme measures that a superior (or council of peers if necessary or if a superior doesn‘t feel like he had enough clout to act) will actually impose an actual sentence and there will be an actual judgement. This normally involves persistent offence (where the fae is considered to not actually give a damn about honour. This is rarer with Sidhe and usually applies to fae who are less... strict about honour) or when the fae is considered too dangerous to risk keeping around - usually resulting in banishment, the weakening or powers or, in extreme cases, execution (this actually only happens to the Unseelie - which is why many Unseelie races were decimated in the last war as the Seelie considered entire species of fae to be too dangerous to exist - or Sidhe who are too magically powerful to be bound and refuse to submit to any kind of control).
Result of all this? The punishment system of the Seelie is actually chaotic and entirely discretionary (as well as being highly weird with the criminal setting the sentence).
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ahem...
Date: 2006-11-21 12:10 am (UTC)have you ever read War For The Oaks by Emma Bull or Faerie Tale by Raymond E. Feist?
Re: ahem...
Date: 2006-11-21 12:06 pm (UTC)Nopew, not read either, thoiuygh I have read Feist's other works. I will have to look for them in January (next book shopping time)
Re: ahem...
Date: 2006-11-22 02:48 am (UTC)Re: ahem...
Date: 2006-11-25 01:07 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-21 02:39 am (UTC)systems of self-imposed rules that works perfectly well, as long as everyone holds the same standard....but at least there IS a higher authority to catch those that for some reason aren't with the program. i could see it being really tangly and confusing in practice--but then again, their system is of themselves, for themselves, they're born and raised with it deeply ingrained, and they don't have to think about things like immigration and such, right?
do the authorities ever step in when they think a seelie is being too ridiculous about their own punishment, or the wronged is being just TOO over-the-top harsh?
(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-21 12:03 pm (UTC)It works for them becuase they hold standards so high... but I wonder how much falls apart with different interpretations and standards.... I suspect it works very well for the SIDHE and everyone else just does as they're told. THe Sidhe... yes, this is what they are raised with and being Seelie they couldn't IMAGINE it being any other way - especially when you live as long as the fae do
There is a shift in fae populations from place to place, BUT all Sidhe originated in the British Isles (just as all Trolls came from Scandinavia) and then migrated in various "Exodus of kings" to convince the world through reason and honour (and powerful magic) that they are the rulers of the fae. So though there may be different standards among lesser fae (the Trolls, again, are quite disgusted by the number of loopholes the Sidhe will work into their oaths) the actual ruling principles and ruling class remain constant.
The authorities PER SE do not step in in either case EXACTLY. After all, honour is a PRIVATE thing and they don't have a right to intyerfere. BUT there are STANDARDS - and even if they won't be punished for being too excessive, they may face pretty severe social ostracism. A Sidhe who is being too ridiculous in their own punishment is considered arrogant ande prideful - and may be damaging their own ability to fulfill their duties to the Seelie (a big mark of dishonour). Someone who is too harsh is vindictive and cruel - huge black marks against the Seelie and, again, may be unjustly preventing someone from fully discharging their duties to the Seelie. Not only will this get you shunned and mocked and set acid tongues a-wagging but it may earn you no small number of enemies - allies of the people who are being harshly treated, or Sidhe who find themselves having to step in and plug the gaps.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-21 12:20 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-21 12:38 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-22 02:50 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-25 01:03 am (UTC)Now, if a Seelie swears and oath with too big a get-out clause or if he interprets a law extremely narrowly or dodgily then he is on dubious honourable ground and the rest of the fae are going to put him very far down their social hierarchy. It also makes it more likely that the king will intervene - because the very nature of the oath shows the Seelie to be dishonourable. If he commits a crime and gets away with it because of big loop holes or narrow interpretation the rest of the fae are going to look down on him and a Sidhe would probably set themself a lesser penance (or more likely provide a service to society/a high ranking house {who will then publically confirm your honour} than a penance so he doesn't have to accept blame - kind of like settling out of court without admitting liability) as an honourable gesture. Kind of "look, I don't think what I did was wrong, but I accept it was questionable and I accept that you are not happy and respect your feelings on the matter. Please accept this gesture of honour, respect and homage to you all and to the Seelie court to affirm my honour and commitment." Ilatheril has had this described to him and says "oh, so the Sidhe lord just buys you off?" Sitharensor was not amused
If he hurts someone then even if he is technically within his loopholes, or even very safely within (for example, he breaks Seelie laws to save his child in accordance with his oath) then he would still be expected to make a large VOLUNTARY gesture to the wronged one (though the wronged one doesn't get to set a penalty - UNLESS a voluntary gesture is made) because this is partially Seelie tradition (covered by the oath) and generally polite and good and honourable conduct (sure, you may have been FORCED to hurt them, but that doesn't mean you don't have to make amends).
IF the first Seelie feels wronged and the second refuses to acknowledge it then the first may challenge for a duel, or declare a feud between their houses, or deamnd that a higher authority examine and give an OPINION. This opinion is NOT BINDING. BUUUUUUUUUUUUT if said authority says "yes you did a bad thing" and the wrong doer does not make MASSIVE amends then his name is worse than mud. The advantage to this is the wrong doer can choose their amends and there is NO element of imposed penance as there normally would be unless he chooses to accept one - BUT he is expected to make even more amends to make up for the delay and denial.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-25 01:06 am (UTC)If it is clear that they have broken oath OR laws and are just stubbornly refusing to accept it (i.e. saying "I didn't do it" even when it is clear they have) then they face exile - usually voluntarily. Fae look at oathbreakers the same way we look at paedophiles and will drive them out or shun them.
In addition, many oaths are magically enforced which can add its own nasty penalty