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sparkindarknessMore rambly and rather boring world building on relationships - the Seelie's convoluted marriage rules.
These guys give me a headache - how any society can exist with so many rules I will never know
The Seelie looked at marriage and gave it a big thumbs up. It was neat and ordered and about purity and love and devotion – it was the very epitome of what it means to be Seelie! Except they couldn’t really leave well enough alone – marriage was far too SIMPLE for the Seelie. And simple things aren’t ordered, there needs to be layers to cover all of the necessary nuance otherwise you may end up with a system that is not perfectly and orderly ideal for its purpose! So they… expanded on the concept in headache making ways.
The main expansion they made is deciding that the word “marriage” was far too simplistic a way to speak of the many different kinds of relationship that it covers. They decided to have entirely different ceremonies, etiquette and institutions. It really was a master stroke that managed to utterly strip any pretense of romance from most of them (the Seelie contend that that makes Consorts truly romantic – because there’s no fakery).
The end result? The Seelie Sidhe actually have 6 marriage-like institutions. It is perfectly acceptable (and even normal) to have more than one of them (or even multiples of each one) since none of the fae, Seelie or Unseelie, are especially impressed by sexual monogamy. When a Sidhe has multiple spouses there are complex rules of etiquette that establish an in-depth hierarchy between the family household – including special forms of address, who gets to go to what functions, proper modes of dress, serving order etc etc. (Ilatheril considers the 12 books of Seelie Spouse Etiquette to be the greatest work of comedy ever written and will often read them aloud while howling with laughter. Sitharensor is not amused and refuses to let him carry the books anywhere in public).
So the unions are:
Marriage: You may only have one marriage to one person. Marriage is nearly always a political institution – usually houses allying or strengthening bonds between friendly houses and factions etc. The participants are not expected to love each other (though a public persona of polite affection is expected, even if it is fake) or even live together. They are expected to sleep together, but it doesn’t have to be a regular occurrence (some marriages, especially distant ones, are consummated once a year on holy days).
Consort: May be of any gender and of any number. A consort is a bond of affection at least (usually love). It is the resort of those whose marriage must be used for political purposes as the Seelie court recognises the primacy of love and that those who cement the political structure of the court should not sacrifice love for the purpose. Since this is a bond of love Seelie respect it intensely, even if it is technically ranked below that of a marriage. A Consort does NOT create any kind of political alliance.
Mistress (when in the original Sidhe, the term is unisex). There is generally some affection but primarily the Mistress is a sexual partner more than anything else. Most Sidhe do not keep Mistresses since they feel no need to give official status to their casual sexual partners. Sometimes a Sidhe wishes acknowledgement for his Mistresses for various reasons (it can give them some of the rights and protections of his household) and the Seelie’s excessive order creates a method for that formal acknowledgement.
Companion This is not necessarily sexual (but often is). Usually this is a younger Sidhe Companioned to an older, more experienced Sidhe to act like a Lord/Lady in Waiting. Unlike the previous relationships there is a clear difference in status between the 2 Sidhe and the Companion is expected to be submissive and/or subservient. These arrangements are rarely permanent and serve as a kind of apprenticeship for young aristocrats (in politics, life, and sometimes sex). They are also another way of forging political alliances and contacts between houses and ex-Companions usually maintain affection and friendship and are considered to be political allies.
It is rare, but still possible, to have companions between 2 Sidhe of equal age and status as companions – this is usually a convoluted way to form more marriage ties with different Houses. It is not encouraged or desirable, but if a House is short on unattached heirs and is looking for a way to cement some alliances then a convoluted Companion may be the only way since there are no limits to the number of companions a person may have while you may only have one marriage.
Mate A mate is a partner for one purpose – breeding. A relatively new institution, the concept of designated mate has arisen as the birth rate of Sidhe have declined. You can have consorts and Mistresses and Marriages but there is no guarantee of an heir. The mate relationship is very formal – both parties negotiate before the ceremony as to what potential future children will belong to what House, who will see to their upbringing and education, etc. the whole thing is very clinical and all relationship between the two will be entirely focused on producing kids. Technically you can have as many mates as you want but too many is frowned upon since it can spread one bloodline too far (assuming it works).
Pet/Toy: Non-Sidhe bound to a Sidhe. This relationship is OFFICIALLY AND EXPRESSLY NON-SEXUAL. But 9 times out of 10 it is entirely sexual. Basically a Sidhe extends some recognition to a personal companion who is not Sidhe (giving them some status and access). Everyone knows that the Sidhe is probably having sex with the other fae, but everyone pretends they’re not.
Sex in General:
As can be guessed, the Seelie are very goopy about love, but they do not link sex and love automatically. Sex is about passion and lust and pleasure and life – it makes a good expression of love but they tend to think that to confine it to love cheapens love. Sexual monogamy is actually looked down upon since they believe it actually blinds you to love – because sexual desire (Unseelie concept) and love (Seelie concept) become and too closely linked. Not that you’re not expected to have sex with your loved one – it’s just that if you confine sex to them then they wonder how sure you are you are in love.
Sex with other fae is a HUUUUUGE no-no. Most Seelie consider it disgusting, wrong and an affront to nature. But it’s actually easier to get away with it in Seelie society because Seelie are very inclined to mind their own business. So while Unseelie will delve into your sexual life then snicker about it, the Seelie wouldn’t DREAM of mentioning it – even if EVERYONE knows they will all pretend they don’t in an extremely stiltedly polite manner.
Ilatheril theorises that if you burst the bubble of Seelie repression you may actually destroy the planet. Sitharensor just glares at him as says he is not to try – then confiscates all sharp things.
These guys give me a headache - how any society can exist with so many rules I will never know
The Seelie looked at marriage and gave it a big thumbs up. It was neat and ordered and about purity and love and devotion – it was the very epitome of what it means to be Seelie! Except they couldn’t really leave well enough alone – marriage was far too SIMPLE for the Seelie. And simple things aren’t ordered, there needs to be layers to cover all of the necessary nuance otherwise you may end up with a system that is not perfectly and orderly ideal for its purpose! So they… expanded on the concept in headache making ways.
The main expansion they made is deciding that the word “marriage” was far too simplistic a way to speak of the many different kinds of relationship that it covers. They decided to have entirely different ceremonies, etiquette and institutions. It really was a master stroke that managed to utterly strip any pretense of romance from most of them (the Seelie contend that that makes Consorts truly romantic – because there’s no fakery).
The end result? The Seelie Sidhe actually have 6 marriage-like institutions. It is perfectly acceptable (and even normal) to have more than one of them (or even multiples of each one) since none of the fae, Seelie or Unseelie, are especially impressed by sexual monogamy. When a Sidhe has multiple spouses there are complex rules of etiquette that establish an in-depth hierarchy between the family household – including special forms of address, who gets to go to what functions, proper modes of dress, serving order etc etc. (Ilatheril considers the 12 books of Seelie Spouse Etiquette to be the greatest work of comedy ever written and will often read them aloud while howling with laughter. Sitharensor is not amused and refuses to let him carry the books anywhere in public).
So the unions are:
Marriage: You may only have one marriage to one person. Marriage is nearly always a political institution – usually houses allying or strengthening bonds between friendly houses and factions etc. The participants are not expected to love each other (though a public persona of polite affection is expected, even if it is fake) or even live together. They are expected to sleep together, but it doesn’t have to be a regular occurrence (some marriages, especially distant ones, are consummated once a year on holy days).
Consort: May be of any gender and of any number. A consort is a bond of affection at least (usually love). It is the resort of those whose marriage must be used for political purposes as the Seelie court recognises the primacy of love and that those who cement the political structure of the court should not sacrifice love for the purpose. Since this is a bond of love Seelie respect it intensely, even if it is technically ranked below that of a marriage. A Consort does NOT create any kind of political alliance.
Mistress (when in the original Sidhe, the term is unisex). There is generally some affection but primarily the Mistress is a sexual partner more than anything else. Most Sidhe do not keep Mistresses since they feel no need to give official status to their casual sexual partners. Sometimes a Sidhe wishes acknowledgement for his Mistresses for various reasons (it can give them some of the rights and protections of his household) and the Seelie’s excessive order creates a method for that formal acknowledgement.
Companion This is not necessarily sexual (but often is). Usually this is a younger Sidhe Companioned to an older, more experienced Sidhe to act like a Lord/Lady in Waiting. Unlike the previous relationships there is a clear difference in status between the 2 Sidhe and the Companion is expected to be submissive and/or subservient. These arrangements are rarely permanent and serve as a kind of apprenticeship for young aristocrats (in politics, life, and sometimes sex). They are also another way of forging political alliances and contacts between houses and ex-Companions usually maintain affection and friendship and are considered to be political allies.
It is rare, but still possible, to have companions between 2 Sidhe of equal age and status as companions – this is usually a convoluted way to form more marriage ties with different Houses. It is not encouraged or desirable, but if a House is short on unattached heirs and is looking for a way to cement some alliances then a convoluted Companion may be the only way since there are no limits to the number of companions a person may have while you may only have one marriage.
Mate A mate is a partner for one purpose – breeding. A relatively new institution, the concept of designated mate has arisen as the birth rate of Sidhe have declined. You can have consorts and Mistresses and Marriages but there is no guarantee of an heir. The mate relationship is very formal – both parties negotiate before the ceremony as to what potential future children will belong to what House, who will see to their upbringing and education, etc. the whole thing is very clinical and all relationship between the two will be entirely focused on producing kids. Technically you can have as many mates as you want but too many is frowned upon since it can spread one bloodline too far (assuming it works).
Pet/Toy: Non-Sidhe bound to a Sidhe. This relationship is OFFICIALLY AND EXPRESSLY NON-SEXUAL. But 9 times out of 10 it is entirely sexual. Basically a Sidhe extends some recognition to a personal companion who is not Sidhe (giving them some status and access). Everyone knows that the Sidhe is probably having sex with the other fae, but everyone pretends they’re not.
Sex in General:
As can be guessed, the Seelie are very goopy about love, but they do not link sex and love automatically. Sex is about passion and lust and pleasure and life – it makes a good expression of love but they tend to think that to confine it to love cheapens love. Sexual monogamy is actually looked down upon since they believe it actually blinds you to love – because sexual desire (Unseelie concept) and love (Seelie concept) become and too closely linked. Not that you’re not expected to have sex with your loved one – it’s just that if you confine sex to them then they wonder how sure you are you are in love.
Sex with other fae is a HUUUUUGE no-no. Most Seelie consider it disgusting, wrong and an affront to nature. But it’s actually easier to get away with it in Seelie society because Seelie are very inclined to mind their own business. So while Unseelie will delve into your sexual life then snicker about it, the Seelie wouldn’t DREAM of mentioning it – even if EVERYONE knows they will all pretend they don’t in an extremely stiltedly polite manner.
Ilatheril theorises that if you burst the bubble of Seelie repression you may actually destroy the planet. Sitharensor just glares at him as says he is not to try – then confiscates all sharp things.
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(no subject)
Date: 2006-10-03 01:59 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-10-03 02:13 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-10-03 02:22 pm (UTC)Can someone have more than one status with the same person/people at the same time?
Is the Toy/Pet relationship strictly because of the races of the participants, or does it have something to do with conduct?
Under what circumstances may any of these relationships be changed? Dissolved, "upgraded", etc?
If a treaty is dissolved, does that result in a dissolution of Marriage?
Does a successful Mate relationship (live birth of child) result in Marriage, or are the two completely separate?
(no subject)
Date: 2006-10-03 02:57 pm (UTC)1) Well that depends on the ceremony used to cement the relationship, namely what pledges both have made. Sidhe CANNOT and WILL NOT break their word. If the ceremony allows them to change it, cancel it and have a new one (it would not be entirely unheard of for a Mistress to become a Consort, for example) then they may do so. it depends on what oaths they swore (so if they swore that X would be a Mistress for the rest of their lives then that is binding. No get out). So yes, you can change status so long as the oaths you swore allow it and so long a syou don't end up with 2 marriages. Depending on the change, you MAY have some disapproval (a Consort being downgraded is highly frowned upon).
And an aside: a Mate is DESIGNED to have kids - that doesn't mean the other spouses can't have kids as well :) So a mistress who has a kid will be... a mistress with a kid.
2) No - one status outweighs the other in the hierarchy (they are in hierarchy order). You may be having sex with your Consort, but there's no need to make them a Mistress as well. Consort outranks Mistress.
3) It is strictly because of species. No Sidhe would EVER become a toy/pet. If a Sidhe finds himself in a relationship in which he is inherently submissive he would become a companion (if a Sidhe is submissive to a non-Sidhe then it would still be a Toy/pet relationship with the submissiveness behind closed doors).
4) All of these may be changed in accordance to the oaths sworn during the ceremony that formed them (the participants choose their own oathes). If you ahve sworn to "be with them forever." then tough - the oath is binding. The usual 'get out' clauses are mutual agreement for consort or Mistress while just one party announces a willingness to end it with Mistress, Mate, companion or pet. Mates may have a time limit, or be until a child is born. Companion and Marriage often are ended by the participant's head of House ending it because they are political tools (with marriage the Sidhe can't usually end it even if they both agree - their Houses have to choose to end it)
If you want to "upgrade a relationship you need to annul the first one (if you can) and enter into a second.
5) Yes. Usually a divorce will be a significant end to the alliance. So if the Seelie and Unseelie decide to return to war, Ilatheril and Sitharensor will divorce. The oath in a marriage is very similar to an oath of fealty - the act of wars (or dissolving of alliance) by the Houses effectively rescinds the fealty oath.
6) The 2 are completely seperate. Marriage is PURELY for political purposes. Ilatheril and Sitharensor are married and they are both male. There is no other reason for a marriage. With most Mate asituations before the child is born both sides will have agreed which House the child will belong to.
e.g. since Sitharensor has married a man it will be expected to him to make another provision for an heir. If he chooses to take a Mate he will negotiate with her that the first born child become a member of House Eternal Fire (his House). She may negotiate something in return - concessions, alliances, deals, perhaps demanding that the 2nd child be from her House and that they remain Mates until a 2nd child is born. The Organisation will also stipulate a minimum number of attempts at conception and what ever other methods should be use to stimulate fertility. When the child is born he will be a child of Eternal Fire, the Mate relationship may well end then and the 2 go their (relatively) seperate ways (the mother will still be very involved in the child's upbringing unless they have negotiated otherwise).
(no subject)
Date: 2006-10-03 02:59 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-10-03 03:43 pm (UTC)okay, sorting this out:
marriage: political: 1X1. sex (for all intents and purposes), children, love, etc, is frosting. question: is the sex expection based on a consummation symbolism type thing?
consort: emotional/social bond: 1x[insert # here]. no political alliance. children optional. sex also optional? one is imagining a loving asexual consort relationship as unlikely as hell, but possible? ...i could see someone being sneaky and officially giving a consort rank as a sort of political asylum maneuver to a person they're fond of.
mistress: someone holding "fuckbuddy" as an official rank, essentially. no other obligations required.
companion: a rather roman arrangement of older/younger, mentorship/apprenticeship.
mate: ...one would assume at least one party is proven fertile? leasing out of womb-space could get verrrry complicated, as well as rights of mother vs. father. those talks are probably interesting. >_>;
Everyone knows that the Sidhe is probably having sex with the other fae, but everyone pretends they’re not.
*dead of laughter*
...all in all, i suspect their inheritance laws are INTERESTING.
also: *random love for ilatheril*
okay, okay sitharensor, i love you too. but. today, it's ilatheril that gets the cookies.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-10-03 05:25 pm (UTC)1) Yep, sex in marriage is symbolic - it is a union of the Houses and differentiates it from a simple treaty on pape
2) Consort is affection. Children optional but desireable (in fact they can be sticky because you THEN have to decide what House affiliation the children will have). That's a perfectly legal use of Consort (since you can have any number) you need to feel affection, that's all. BUT it is FROWNED upon to use consorts for political purposes because it cheapens the institution. The protection it offers is pretty minimal, however - you're supposed to be equals and still maintain your old ties. If you really need asylum you would be better served being a Companion when it is expected for the other Sidhe to protect you. Using a Consort would be more face saving, however (if you become another Sidhe's companion and you're not young then it's pretty humiliating).
3) Yep :) Official concubines but without either side being dominant (both are the OTHER'S mistress. There's no inherent dominant partner).
4) Yep - that's it - Roman/Greek arrangment in a nut shell but it does NOT involve underaged Sidhe. Sidhe, as a dying race (Seelie and Unseelie), have a universal rule with their children - you do not mess with them or we will ALL squish you. technically Sitharensor is young enough that he should be a Companion for the next 100 years or so, but politics has diverted him.
5) At least one party must be highly suspected of being fertile at least (there are magical tests, but they are not infallible). Those talks are looong, complicated, UTTERLY mercenary (a House with a highly fertile son or daughter can make a LOT of money and influence by pimping them out), VERY polite and really unromantic. Sitharensor wouldn't have trouble though - his House is so high ranking that most lower ranking Houses would happily pimp out a Mate for no other benefit than the huge prestige boost they get out of it.
Inheritance would be horrendous, but it's generally saved by the Head of the House naming his successor in title (in fact, among the Seelie he gives a full list of inheritors in declining order). All property of the House is technically his or hers anyway and anything the minor members of the House own is merely borrowed (except when the head of House or a higher authority has made a point of giving it). When a House head dies intestate.... well, HOPEFULLY there's an obvious heir. If not - well, usually you've got yourself a civil war (or, FAAAR WORSE, a duel).
(no subject)
Date: 2006-10-03 07:01 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-10-03 07:57 pm (UTC)In a duel the two Sidhe face each other - there's no politics, no maneuvering, no general, no tactics, no forces. These are just 2 powerful magical beings gathering all the power they have and trying to force the other to yield (this is one of the few occasions when a Sidhe can call on everything it means to be Sidhe and unleash all their power). It's one of the few occasionsThey usually take place in isolated areas because the local area and all local life is destroyed - either by the backlash or by vast amounts of horrendous ripping.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-10-03 09:10 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-10-04 01:27 pm (UTC)Thanks, yes the details scramble my brains, but the culture can be so alien and concepts so odd that I ahve to do this world building so I know where things stand. It's so easy to get lost
(no subject)
Date: 2006-10-04 01:08 pm (UTC)...so i should probably be making myself an honorary unseelie badge then?
2) yeah, i was thinking on the face-saving end of things--a private face vs. the public one? privately being more a companion, but with an Official consort ranking? granted, on one hand it would be a hell of a dance, since everyone's supposed to be standing on their own two and dealing with their own political issues--but frankly, i wouldn't be the one to mess with a consort of a significant power, because let's face it--it can't help but put you in negative standing with the power, right?
...*eyes the rest* just LOOK how much evil plotting fun you could have with this entire system! *cough*
(no subject)
Date: 2006-10-04 01:22 pm (UTC)Sitharensor: Was there any doubt?
Ilatheril: Don't mind him, he's just jealous.
Exactly, you save a lot of face and though you don't OFFICIALLY get any kind of protection from your consort - screwing with someone's Consort is a BAD idea. They will squish you and most Seelie will applaud to see them do it.
The system is just DESIGNED for evil plotting fun, isn't it? :) Wonderful, truly wonderful.
Sitharensor: Ilatheril, drop that copy of "the Prince." You are not playing Machiavelli.
Ilatheril: But LOOK at it?! C'mon, how can I NOT?
(no subject)
Date: 2006-10-04 01:24 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-10-03 06:59 pm (UTC)Tho' I've been reading too much Laurell K Hamilton (Merry Gentry series)... That's as bad as your elven world for politics... :)
(no subject)
Date: 2006-10-03 08:04 pm (UTC)Yep, I've read the series, shame they are pron but they're still good