sparkindarkness | Ok, let’s have an awkward conversation.

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Ok, let’s have an awkward conversation.

I’ve poked around recently the idea that various oppressed and disadvantaged groups should stop snarling at each other and stand together more strongly as allies naturally united against oppression, injustice and hateful shit none of us should have to deal with.

And there’s one particular element of this that bugs me muchly and, since it also hits kinda close to home, I think it’s one I’m going to poke a little extra.

There’s a chance here that I’m going to go wrong here. I’ll (naturally) try not to, but I apologise in advance if I do.

That being said, I tentatively poke my toe into that nasty little cess pool we don’t like to talk about - why, in the GBLT community, are some of the G&L so damned uncomfortable with the B&T? Well, a lot of it comes down to your standard prejudice (as I’ve said 100 times before, just because you’re a member of an oppressed group doesn’t mean you are immune to being an arsehole) but I think there’s 2 other issues as well. The first - the desire for “specialness” and the way no-one likes their causes to be even slightly diluted is easy to understand and equally easy to dismiss as ridiculous and part and parcel of the whole bigotness. The second, though, I think is the bigger issue:

Bisexuals and Transgendered remind us of items of prevalent homophobia that get our backs up. By reminding us of that can lead to prejudice from gays towards Bisexuals and transexuals To elaborate from that HIGHLY inflammatory statement (it‘s getting long, so split in 2):

Bisexuals
The issues
This raises many hot button issues. Firstly, and perhaps mainly, is a sense of anger and even envy that a bisexual can paddle in the pool but get out if the water gets cold. I’ve spoken before about how I find people pretending to be gay for profit or gain offends me (a link to a comment thread where I vent: http://community.livejournal.com/thisthingwedo/6082.html?thread=167106#t167106) - and to an extent the same rough feeling can apply to bisexuals. NOT because they’re pretending but because there’s a sense that they can stop. They don’t have to do this. A bisexual man can jump out the water and say “pass me some boobies” and reintegrate with a society that has all the menfolk doing that boobie loving. And we can’t. We can’t get out the water when it’s cold or there are rapids or rabid crocodiles with bees in their mouths. In short, there’s an idea that bisexuals have a CHOICE which means a) they don’t get the same shit we do and b) if the water gets really rough, well, maybe they’ll get out?

It’s where this idea of bisexuals being gays that just can’t admit it comes from - because they can ‘play straight’ to protect themselves bisexual is seen as cowardly.

Then there’s the nasty thing that a lot of the homophobic crazies are telling us gay folks we need to change, that we should change, that we could change if we just tried hard enough! Then there’s this group of people who CAN seemingly change and that oh-so-does-not-help when we say we CAN’T

So, I think, there’s a sense of resentment, a sense that they get off easy, an idea that they’re playing almost and irritation that they give ammunition to some of the crazies

And why it’s so very very wrong
I’ve said before that while we all have similar problems (prejudice) the devil is in the details - and I think a lot of gay critics of bisexuals are seeing bisexuals through the wrong lens - and missing the details they endure that we don’t have to.

The issue of choice - well it’s bullshit. A bisexual cannot “choose” not to be bisexual any more than we can choose not to be gay. Yes, they can PRETEND to be straight far more easily than we can - but that’s a double edged sword. The closet for bisexual people can cling much more closely because they can pretend - and it’s more easy to EXPECT them to pretend. A sizeable number of sensible people in the world today accept that homosexuality is inherent - when a gay person comes out to them, well, this person is now gay and the opposite sex is not in the picture, end of. Sadly for a bisexual when they come out there’s always that element of “well, you can still be straight, right?” A bi guy can dump his boyfriend and go find a girlfriend, right? Well no, they can’t - but refusal to pretend is treated as more... well, wilful or defiant, y’know? Even if it is as reasonable as expecting one half of an interracial couple to dump their partner and find someone with the same skin tone.

If anything the bisexual’s playing both sides means they can end up with even more grief about “changing” than we do, because even relatively reasonable, not rabidly crazy folk are going to assume that a bisexual can (or even should!) play straight. The people who will accept gays because we “can’t help it” will still give the bis shit because of the wrongful impression that they CAN. And all of this is made far far worse by so very many people not talking bisexuals seriously - just because a group can hide better doesn’t mean they don’t have to put up with shit - and WE of all people should know that!

In the end, the Bisexual community is one of the closest natural allies the homosexual community has. Treating them like shit is going nowhere.

Sparky’s guide to not giving bi people shit

Don’t take our anger at the way the homophobes treat us (and their demand for ‘change’) out on the bisexuals. It’s not fair - direct our anger sensibly.

Don’t belittle a bisexual’s issues, don’t play the “I’m more tortured than you” game.

Treat their issues with respect, understand they may have DIFFERENT issues from you. Don’t act like they’re the backing group for the Big Gay Angst - they need their issues aired as well

Don’t imply bisexuality is a choice. Don’t suggest a bisexual can pretend to be straight (or gay). Don’t suggest their partners are interchangeable. Don’t suggest they can stop being bisexual.

Don’t buy into stupid stereotypes. A bisexual isn’t a gay who can’t admit it. They are capable of monogamy. They aren’t shagging everything in trousers/skirts et al.

The Bisexuals are in it with us for the long haul, they’re not going to quit early, they’re not dabblers, they’re not weekend warriors. They’re in their with us - respect them for that.

There’s my waffle. Bisexuals please feel free to weigh in with the many things I’ve got wrong (but don’t feel obliged to). And my GBLT brothers and sisters - we’ve got enough shit being thrown at us, let’s not give each other a hard time, ‘kay?

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Cheer! Well said.

Thankee

Spot on! One thing to add:

Sadly for a bisexual when they come out there’s always that element of “well, you can still be straight, right?”

There's also the issue that a lot of straight men (I can't say if it's the same for women) appear to be less threatened by a gay guy than by a bi-guy. I have no idea why, and I have no idea of the "logic" behind it.

Any thoughts anyone else might have on the subject would be welcome.

the immediate thought is how it pertains to themselves---if the man is attracted to women, well, that means they're "safe," they're Obviously not gay, so there's no reason to find homosexuality threatening, right? but bisexuality throws a wingnut into that line of reasoning, and thus, their existence is more fundamentally threatening; it's a reminder that simply being attracted to one gender doesn't necessarily cancel out attraction to the other. it's ninja gayness! it could still get them!

There's also the thing that a gay man is never going to threaten their relationship with their girlfriend. Like every hetrosexual man out there, they may find their girlfriend sexay, and who knows said girlfriend may decide to leave them and vanish off with said threat. Afterall, men find lesbians hot and they only need a good man to show them what's what, so maybe girls feel the same way about gay men?

But gay guys, well they can talk handbags with their girlfriend, but there's no danger that the girl may vanish off with the gay boy.

It's sad if someone feels that controlling / insecure about their relationship - or indeed so badly misled about such things, but some people are.

yeeep. this too, definitely. not to mention, we all know all bisexuals are all total sluts and will go after ANYONE. (this may be true for some, but i doubt it's any more true, percentage-wise, than anyone else of any other orientation--worse, you can't really prove it one way or the other, because a monogamous bi is either "straight" or "gay" until proven otherwise by....what? cheating?) *headdesk*

I've always been bemused by the idea that bissexuals are these hyper-sexualised sluts who want sex ALLLL the time just because they're attracted to men AND women.

Seriously, I mean, I'm attracted to men - but that doesn't mean I'm not happy with this man and every other man is a potential target.

Statistics of any kind regarding sexuality usually fail because of the closet. The vast majority of homosexual and bisexual people are busily hiding the fact - sadly this DOES mean that assumptions tend to be made based on those who aren't quietly keeping their head down, but who are, say, busy entertaining guests at the local club

I'm always amused by how posessive some people are about their significant others. I keep wanting to ask them if they'd like to tattoo an "owned by..." sign on their girlfriends

ninja gayness

That made me smile. :-)

Your point (and the points of others) make sense me. Carrying it further, I wonder if it's because they've got it all in nice little boxes - one is either straight or gay (and many other false binary states) - and along comes someone who messes with (and challenges) their boxes. And people don't like being forced to admit they may have something wrong, so they react against the thing (person) that made them realise it.

Possible I suppose.

People like to slot others into nice little categories and label them accordingly. It's lazy and easy - because then you just have to pull out a little behaviour tab to deal with each one. This is how I deal with women, this is how I deal with men and this is who I deal with gay people etc etc

Exactly - and all the booby loving mens around them could be having hidden manssex! That booby-loving guy... did he check me out?! OMG THE GAYS ARE EVERYWHERE!!!!

Ninja gayness is now a classic. It is so made of win that it ascends over the internets for the nets cnanot hold this much win

Thankee

Because you can't be easily categoriosed and OMG that means that any of these boobie loving guys around them could *gasp* love the mansex as well.

Omg, did I look at that guy's arse? But I like boobies - but so does he and he has the mansex! AAAAAAAAAARGH!!!!

Never ever underestimate the insecurities of straight men :P

Memo to self: Do not read sparkies comments at work, with a mouthful of coffee, while surrounded by straight men...

It's a good job I can swallow quickly!

It's a good job I can swallow quickly!

I deserve a MEDAL for not using any of the many many many innuendos that this comment made possible.

Not that I had it in mind as a feed-line when I typed it - honest gov... :-)

I think I love you.

YES.

"Twice the chance for rejection on Saturday night," too.

Thankeeee

*shudder* would not want to get that side at all

*adds to your list in a devil's advocate sort of way.* twice the chance of rejection, twice the temptation--there's also the nasty insecurity that comes with the possibility not only being dumped/cheated on, but being dumped/cheated on with someone of a different gender. not everyone wants to deal with that possibility. =\

And if you're gay and have been dumped for someone of the opposite gender, the temptation to ascribe it to your ex having 'not really been gay' is very strong. (May even be true, but that's harder to judge.)

yep. breakups are hard enough, and then there's sexual politics and identity issues and authenticity issues and oh, what an ugly mix. (exactly. *grimace*)

It's always easy to blame the ex. Hells, how many straight guys assume they are being turned down by lesbians? *eye roll*

Very true - but when epople are playing the envy game they don't see the downside :)

I think that feeds into gay insecurities with bi partners as well. I mean, your boyfriend is gay - and we all know how much shit we get for being openly gay. So... wouldn't the bi boyfriend find it happier or easier with a girl? It preys on already raw insecurities

This. Just this.

Thank you.

Thenakeee

I had always wondered why such hateful hurtful prejudice is directed towards Bi people. I've discovered quite a few friends and even relatives are bi or bi-curious and heard some of the icky drama they can get thrown at them for no other reason than they happen to find both sexes irresistibly attractive and compelling.

Strangely enough, I've encountered it through an RPG character too. Jareth is a Cultist of Ecstasy and an equal opportunity lover because he's a joybringer and everyone with a heart needs to know love and acceptance and affection regardless of who they are. He's colorblind and well Genderblind too. When he 'came out' to someone in a bar setting in a public room, I suddenly got flamed, not from the person he was speaking to, but another player who had issue with Jer's casual seeming swinging-both-ways was acceptable. Is it wrong for a Bi person to accept being Bi and discuss openly his choice of lifestyle with another person? Jer wasn't even bringing it up because he wanted to sleep with that other person, they were discussing difficult choices in their lives and that happened to be a topic. Since the other player insisted in chewing me out OOC without using the private message function, there was a huge public mess arguing the point until RPing got too difficult in the room and I switched to IM so that we could continue the conversation in peace. I can't verify that the other player was actually gay or even what gender. They could have just spoken up to vent regardless of relevance and disrupt RP like a troll. Some people seemed to be on Jer's side arguing back against the other player, most were just annoyed this was being discussed and disrupting RP. The other player tried to make it a personal issue accusing or suggesting I personally play this type of character because I must be living vicariously through them and thus they get to have issue with me because I must be Bi. (and I can see the point since maybe 90% of the gay characters on the chats seem to be played by females and maybe another 20% of the gay females are played by guys.) That was the point where I ran out of tolerance and left the room regardless of whether my leaving seemed to prove the other player right.

I can understand in some ways how it can bother straight people or gay people that Bi people are assumed to be just Greedy, but I never bought into the assumption that it was a casual choice. If anything I imagine discovering this part of sexuality can be even More confusing with trying to understand why your brain and hormones react so strongly to a well endowed man or a woman with a big rack, realizing this and screaming at your body to "MAKE UP IT'S MIND!?!?!11!elventy-one!1" Since they can't what do they do then? Sure, they seem to have options, but which one do they go with? There's already all the pressure and stigma to be one or the other. What does one do when they are stuck in the middle and how do they come out to their BF or GF about it? For bi people who seem to have it easy, I know better than to think they do. Bi people don't get a win-win situation all because they can go both ways. If anything, they are in a lose-lose situation because they'll never be fully accepted by either side.

In the end, the Bisexual community is one of the closest natural allies the homosexual community has. Treating them like shit is going nowhere.

Here here!

If anything I imagine discovering this part of sexuality can be even More confusing with trying to understand why your brain and hormones react so strongly to a well endowed man or a woman with a big rack, realizing this and screaming at your body to "MAKE UP IT'S MIND!?!?!11!elventy-one!1"

This. Oh dear heavens, this. I knew about homosexuality as a teenager, and I knew I wasn't gay. But I /didn't/ know about bisexuality, and I suspect that I mangled a good number of things that could have worked out so much better if I'd know that liking both boys and girls was an option.

I suspect that I mangled a good number of things that could have worked out so much better if I'd know that liking both boys and girls was an option.

oh god, this. =(

[i suspect my being ASD and having trouble both identifying the emotions and communicating in the first place kept me from making too many messes, but it really screwed my teenage/young adult years up pretty good.]

*HUGS FOR BOTH OF YOU!*

I spend so much time boggling about prejudice in general. I do the reasonmable arguing I try to understand - but in the end I just want to scream.

Is it wrong for a Bi person to accept being Bi and discuss openly his choice of lifestyle with another person?

Basic closet demand - a lot of people would be so very very very very happy if all of us in the GBLT ranks would just keep quiet about it if we're going to be so rude as to willfully be all sinful and stuff. It's like "fine you're G/B/L/T but there's no need to TELL people about it." like you're confessing to some terrible private crime or unsavoury personal habit

I imagine bi people have even more trouble with identity than conflicted gay teens - because they can't put themself in that nice easy box that we so love to classify people in

Speaking as someone who's pretty much directly in the middle of the Kinsey scale, I'll say that you nailed it pretty well, so rather than address your points directly, I'll ramble for a bit.

For me -- particularly as a bisexual female -- there's also an odd sense of guilt. The guilt is even stronger since I wound up finding (and marrying) a partner who happened to be male, so I to all intents and purposes look pretty much like a happy het. I'm not; it's really a matter of timing and coincidence that my partner turned out male. But by loving the person that I do, I often feel like I'm not doing my part to support GLBT rights. (Not, mind you, that I'm going to drop him to go find a cause-acceptable female.)

I find it frustrating as a bi female to hear things like "Oh, you're only interested in girls because it's trendy/men find it hot/Madonna kissed Brittany." No, really. I like girls because, well, they're girls. They have neat squishy bits and they're tasty and yummy and awesome. Denying that I am sexually attracted to women would be a denial of who I am, and that's not good.

Really, I think the point to emphasize in the whole Then there’s the nasty thing that a lot of the homophobic crazies are telling us gay folks we need to change, that we should change, that we could change if we just tried hard enough! Then there’s this group of people who CAN seemingly change and that oh-so-does-not-help when we say we CAN’T saga is that actually, no. Bisexuals can't change either. The non-poly of us are perfectly capable of picking one person (of some indeterminate gender) and sticking with them, but that doesn't meant that we don't occasionally want or lust after the other one. The feelings and desires are still there. just because I'm married to a wonderful man doesn't keep me from looking at attractive women. (It also doesn't keep me from looking at attractive men either.)

Anyway, thumbs up. You did good, Sparky.

The guilt is even stronger since I wound up finding (and marrying) a partner who happened to be male, so I to all intents and purposes look pretty much like a happy het. I'm not; it's really a matter of timing and coincidence that my partner turned out male. But by loving the person that I do, I often feel like I'm not doing my part to support GLBT rights. (Not, mind you, that I'm going to drop him to go find a cause-acceptable female.)

*frantic waving*

YES. THIS. SO MUCH THIS.

Hi. I'm in the same position and I feel exactly the same. Thank you so much for putting it so eloquently!

SECONDING THIS. SO SO MUCH.

That's the depressing thing - and which bugs me. A bisexual isn't being trendy or faking it just because they have someone of the opposite gender. I think it alienates a lot of people stupidly because we assume bissexuals aren't serious - and it's not fair. It's ridiculously unhelpful that we're attacking and pushing away allies like this. We of all people should know that what someone is cannot be changed

Thankee :)

it's really a matter of timing and coincidence that my partner turned out male.

Yes. I was once told by a gay woman, in all seriousness, that I had no right to affiliate myself with her cause, because I was 'passing' in society. Most people would look at me and assume I was one of the heterosexual 'norm' and therefore I did not suffer as she did. That may certainly be true, to an extent, but it seems a poor reason to cut out a natural group of supporters.

Lots of good things said here. *nodnodnods*

(And it's not just the gay community being gits towards the bi and trans people, I've seen the trans people particularly being gits right back. The most homophobic twit I've ever met was a trans woman. I wanted to smack her for her hypocrisy. Augh.)

It just boggles me. Hello we're on the SAME SIDE?! What is WRONG with all the squabbling?! I just want to run around and slap them all until they get a vague clue

Somewhere, my sister is applauding very loudly.

She was bi and loved fiercely, and was loved just as fiercely, by people of both genders. She was also an outspoken advocate for gay rights.

If she had been forced to give up her bisexuality, she would have given up an essential part of who she was. As heartbroken as I will always be at her loss, I am so very happy that she lived her life so fully.

Thank gods that she got to live life openly honestly and in way that was true to who SHE was not what other people tried to box her in as

I can't wait to see what Sparky has to say about the Transgender. Due to the RP world, I've known a friend playing a Hermaphrodite. As a result I had to look up more information on them (not to mention come up with writing entirely new pronouns whenever we addressed the character.)Hermaphrodites are not something you really hear much about and it was difficult to find information much less any biographical account of how they deal with sexuality. And it's not just 50/50 either. There's FIVE DIFFERENT KINDS! Most often parents Pick which gender a hermaphrodite is at birth. They decide whether you get to keep your girl or boy parts no matter what ratio you are given them. For those that are allowed to be both, what must it be like to grow up that way with that choice so clearly outlined on your body. It's not as if they should be assumed to be the ultimate bisexual.

I'm slowly putting it together :) but I think it needs to be a little better crafted than my usual stream of consciousness exercises :)

I have absolutely no idea about the hermaphrodite experience - it's never been something I've come across to be honest and I can't imagine what they have to deal with.

On the whole I think that, while people may get some knee-jerk lashing out at what is different - a hermaphrodite may get out of some OVERT prejudice trouble because their bodies are what they were born with and there's (at least openly) an idea that that's a very unfair thing to give someone shit about - but I'm just plucking ideas from the air

On the whole I think that, while people may get some knee-jerk lashing out at what is different - a hermaphrodite may get out of some OVERT prejudice trouble because their bodies are what they were born with and there's (at least openly) an idea that that's a very unfair thing to give someone shit about

That's the way I think it would be to me. But then if there isn't prejudice for how someone was specifically born, there could be re-directed prejudice towards parents who didn't "Fix you when they had the chance".I really gotta wonder. Maybe I'm just weird for trying to think of these things since I may never find myself in a position to ask and actual Hermaphrodite, but I'm a Gamer, and a writer and for the sake of being informed and may present characters realistically I have to wrap my brain around every concept, including the concepts of other people's characters.

You've just used a thousand words to say what I've been saying for years in five

;)

Being bi isn't being greedy

:P

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Ok, let’s have an awkward conversation.

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Glad this was brought up

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