Because I love to add my 2 penno'worth
Jan. 11th, 2009 05:56 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
sparkindarknessA couple of related issues have swirled around the internet lately and though I am rather late on both I do wish to put my oar in.
I’m not going to comment on specific issues in too much detail because a) they’ve already been debated at length by many many people who know more than I and b) I know that in at least on case one of the participants has no wish to be embroiled in the drama any further - he has my full support and agreement of his position but the vitriol level has been high and I have no wish to put him back in any kind of firing line.
Anyway the 2 issues:
1. A m/m romance novel entitled “Beautiful Cocksucker“
2. A Harry Potter fanfiction website using the word “miscegenation” to describe interracially themed fanfiction.
Others have gone long and in depth as to why these were silly, wrong and down right insane, so I’m not going to repeat what has been said far more eloquently and in far more detail.
No, I am going to talk about the responses (vaguely) and how we should act if we are caught in the same situation.
What was that? You all gasped and said “Sparky, I am a good, accepting, wonderful person! I would never say something racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, anti-religious group, anti-disabled or otherwise prejudiced or bigoted.”
To which I say - you probably will. I know I will, and have. I certainly won’t mean it and I dare say you won’t either - but at some point we will say/do something that is offensive to other people whether individually or as a group.
And it usually isn’t our fault. No, I don’t mean that as a cop out. It will be a genuine mistake. Either something will slip out you never realise has been imprinted on your mind (maybe your parents left you with that rambling great uncle who was always muttering about the “darkies” once too often) you didn’t realise or maybe you were simply ignorant that a term was offensive (I still remember the horrified surprise when my dad said he was going to the ‘chinkie’ for a take away)
When it comes down to it, we’re all products of our society. And, like it or not, our societies (ALL societies) are chocked FULL of prejudice - historically, culturally and presently. It’s just there, in media, in history, in the attitudes of those around us. It’s there and will sink in to even the best and most decent of us. More, we sometimes won’t even realise it has - as the Angry Black woman says on her inestimable blog - you are not so alert to prejudice that is not aimed at you. If it’s not aimed at you it can fly under your radar completely unnoticed.
So, let me summarise before I get more verbose. You, me, everyone CAN and probably WILL say/do something offensive to other people and groups without meaning to. You will do it by accident, by mistake or through ignorance.
And, usually, that isn’t too much of a problem. Well, it is, but it’s a problem on a grander scale because our society still carries the baggage of prejudice that scars all of us. But INDIVIDUALLY it is not a problem because - and I say again - EVERYONE CAN/WILL do it AND no malice was intended.
No, what MATTERS is how you react when someone turns to you and says “I can’t believe you said that!” with a glint of outraged fury in their eye.
What you should do:
1) Apologise. Unreservedly and without qualification. This means saying “I’m sorry I said that” “I’m sorry I offended you” is acceptable but not as good as the first.
2) Explain that no malice was intended and that you acted through ignorance. Make it clear you will avoid repeating the offensive action. DO NOT EXCUSE THE ACTION/WORD USE
3) Make what amends are possible (edit the website, for example).
4) AVOID REPETITION. Doing it once is forgivable. Repeatedly doing the same thing? Yeah, see claiming ignorance doesn’t work if you’ve been TOLD what your saying is wrong.
5) If, for some odd reason (perhaps religious imperative, or a historical novel), you must continue and activity or saying that is offensive - politely explain why and, if possible, apologise and ACKNOWLEDGE the pain you are causing. Alright, you’re probably not going to win any fans, but if you’re hurting other people the least you can do is minimise the damage and try to be as decent as possible about it.
Will these stop your offended person from blowing up in your face and trying to bludgeon you with their umbrella? Usually, yes. And if it doesn’t - well some people are sensitive and also remember that just because someone is a female, black, homosexual, jewish disabled person doesn’t mean they can’t ALSO be an arsehole. Except point 5. They may not bludgeon you with the brolly but if you say “I’m sorry, I have to hurt you” then they’re perfectly within their rights to respond “I’m sorry, but I’m treating you with the same lack of respect you treat me.”
What not to do
1) Fake apology. “I’m sorry you’re offended.” Implies that you’re perfectly right and the offendee is not being reasonable. Wins few brownie points, that one.
2) Claim the term isn’t offensive. It just offended someone. Alright, there are people everywhere who are offended by everything, I know. But if you say something sexist and a woman turns round in fury, the chances are she’s better qualified to spot sexism than you.
3) Attack the offended - you may think they’re being oversensitive - but you’re not the victim here. There’s even a good chance you have NO IDEA what it’s like to be the victim in such a situation. It’s not your place to say how much someone should feel hurt by hurtful language.
4) Belittling the offence. If you refuse to take a basic action, like, say, changing “miscegenation” to “interracial” or otherwise acknowledge a problem but refuse to spend any time or effort addressing it you are dismissing it as unimportant. Saying “yes it’s offensive, but who gives a damn” is not going to make anyone a happy bunny. Obviously steps have to be reasonable and proportionate, but doing nothing or dismissing the whole thing out of hand doesn’t help.
5) “this gay/black/jewish/whatever person isn’t offended.” Uh-huh. This carries as much weight as “I have plenty of gay/black/jewish/whatever friends!” Some black people aren’t offended by the N-word either - but would any of us consider that an argument to say the word isn’t offensive?
Ultimately, like all the “pc” stuff that people fear so greatly it comes down to one basic concept. Be polite and respectful of your fellow human beings. And part of that is the basic response that you should a) try not to offend people and b) try to make amends if you do. It’s basic good manners.
I’m not going to comment on specific issues in too much detail because a) they’ve already been debated at length by many many people who know more than I and b) I know that in at least on case one of the participants has no wish to be embroiled in the drama any further - he has my full support and agreement of his position but the vitriol level has been high and I have no wish to put him back in any kind of firing line.
Anyway the 2 issues:
1. A m/m romance novel entitled “Beautiful Cocksucker“
2. A Harry Potter fanfiction website using the word “miscegenation” to describe interracially themed fanfiction.
Others have gone long and in depth as to why these were silly, wrong and down right insane, so I’m not going to repeat what has been said far more eloquently and in far more detail.
No, I am going to talk about the responses (vaguely) and how we should act if we are caught in the same situation.
What was that? You all gasped and said “Sparky, I am a good, accepting, wonderful person! I would never say something racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, anti-religious group, anti-disabled or otherwise prejudiced or bigoted.”
To which I say - you probably will. I know I will, and have. I certainly won’t mean it and I dare say you won’t either - but at some point we will say/do something that is offensive to other people whether individually or as a group.
And it usually isn’t our fault. No, I don’t mean that as a cop out. It will be a genuine mistake. Either something will slip out you never realise has been imprinted on your mind (maybe your parents left you with that rambling great uncle who was always muttering about the “darkies” once too often) you didn’t realise or maybe you were simply ignorant that a term was offensive (I still remember the horrified surprise when my dad said he was going to the ‘chinkie’ for a take away)
When it comes down to it, we’re all products of our society. And, like it or not, our societies (ALL societies) are chocked FULL of prejudice - historically, culturally and presently. It’s just there, in media, in history, in the attitudes of those around us. It’s there and will sink in to even the best and most decent of us. More, we sometimes won’t even realise it has - as the Angry Black woman says on her inestimable blog - you are not so alert to prejudice that is not aimed at you. If it’s not aimed at you it can fly under your radar completely unnoticed.
So, let me summarise before I get more verbose. You, me, everyone CAN and probably WILL say/do something offensive to other people and groups without meaning to. You will do it by accident, by mistake or through ignorance.
And, usually, that isn’t too much of a problem. Well, it is, but it’s a problem on a grander scale because our society still carries the baggage of prejudice that scars all of us. But INDIVIDUALLY it is not a problem because - and I say again - EVERYONE CAN/WILL do it AND no malice was intended.
No, what MATTERS is how you react when someone turns to you and says “I can’t believe you said that!” with a glint of outraged fury in their eye.
What you should do:
1) Apologise. Unreservedly and without qualification. This means saying “I’m sorry I said that” “I’m sorry I offended you” is acceptable but not as good as the first.
2) Explain that no malice was intended and that you acted through ignorance. Make it clear you will avoid repeating the offensive action. DO NOT EXCUSE THE ACTION/WORD USE
3) Make what amends are possible (edit the website, for example).
4) AVOID REPETITION. Doing it once is forgivable. Repeatedly doing the same thing? Yeah, see claiming ignorance doesn’t work if you’ve been TOLD what your saying is wrong.
5) If, for some odd reason (perhaps religious imperative, or a historical novel), you must continue and activity or saying that is offensive - politely explain why and, if possible, apologise and ACKNOWLEDGE the pain you are causing. Alright, you’re probably not going to win any fans, but if you’re hurting other people the least you can do is minimise the damage and try to be as decent as possible about it.
Will these stop your offended person from blowing up in your face and trying to bludgeon you with their umbrella? Usually, yes. And if it doesn’t - well some people are sensitive and also remember that just because someone is a female, black, homosexual, jewish disabled person doesn’t mean they can’t ALSO be an arsehole. Except point 5. They may not bludgeon you with the brolly but if you say “I’m sorry, I have to hurt you” then they’re perfectly within their rights to respond “I’m sorry, but I’m treating you with the same lack of respect you treat me.”
What not to do
1) Fake apology. “I’m sorry you’re offended.” Implies that you’re perfectly right and the offendee is not being reasonable. Wins few brownie points, that one.
2) Claim the term isn’t offensive. It just offended someone. Alright, there are people everywhere who are offended by everything, I know. But if you say something sexist and a woman turns round in fury, the chances are she’s better qualified to spot sexism than you.
3) Attack the offended - you may think they’re being oversensitive - but you’re not the victim here. There’s even a good chance you have NO IDEA what it’s like to be the victim in such a situation. It’s not your place to say how much someone should feel hurt by hurtful language.
4) Belittling the offence. If you refuse to take a basic action, like, say, changing “miscegenation” to “interracial” or otherwise acknowledge a problem but refuse to spend any time or effort addressing it you are dismissing it as unimportant. Saying “yes it’s offensive, but who gives a damn” is not going to make anyone a happy bunny. Obviously steps have to be reasonable and proportionate, but doing nothing or dismissing the whole thing out of hand doesn’t help.
5) “this gay/black/jewish/whatever person isn’t offended.” Uh-huh. This carries as much weight as “I have plenty of gay/black/jewish/whatever friends!” Some black people aren’t offended by the N-word either - but would any of us consider that an argument to say the word isn’t offensive?
Ultimately, like all the “pc” stuff that people fear so greatly it comes down to one basic concept. Be polite and respectful of your fellow human beings. And part of that is the basic response that you should a) try not to offend people and b) try to make amends if you do. It’s basic good manners.
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(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-11 06:29 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-11 07:00 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-12 01:16 am (UTC)What do you do when a third party tells you something is offensive? I'm curious about this, because I had somebody give me a lengthy lecture about how a term I was using was horrifically offensive to a particular group, but he was not a member of that group, and did not even actually know anybody in that group. I am still a little baffled by the whole thing, honestly. How does he know how a bunch of people who he's never met feel about this? And who the flip am I supposed to apologize to when the person I've "offended" is merely being offended on behalf of somebody else who may or may not think the thing is offensive in the first place?
(The offense in question was the use of the word "gypped" which apparently is offensive to Roma people. I've never met a Roma. I've met gypsies, but they were Irish Travelers, and they used the word themselves. And many other offensive words too, so who knows? I can't find anything talking about it being offensive. It's in the dictionary, which the "n" word isn't... I really have no idea here.)
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-12 01:33 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-12 01:34 am (UTC)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IYx4Bc6_eE
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-12 01:48 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-12 02:14 am (UTC)Not because I'd think they're wrong - there's a good chance they're right - but because I'm more likely to get a more authentic picture. I mean he could be right. he could have read more, been on forums etc.
Gypped is a word I'd consider fairly offensive to the Rroma people, from what i udnerstand from the Rroma I have met through work. Remember that Irish Travellers and Gypsies (I have known both Rroma and Irish Travellers get irritated being called Gypsies too) usually hold themselves apart so what Irish Travellers feel would be very different from what Rroma did.
But this is a classic example. We use words every day that are offensive to some groups and we do not realise it. This is what I'm trying to say with this post. You do it, I do it - everyone does it. We don't mean malice. It doesn't make us a bigot - we do it and we need to recognise it.
I also missed an addendum - just because we make these mistakes DOESN'T (obviously) make us bigoted or prejudice - it makes us ignorant, it makes us mistaken. Easily corrected states
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-12 02:18 am (UTC)See,. this is the thing again. A reasonable, good person, upon being told that something is/might be offensive, doesn't use the word again. Why would they? There are ways to express ourselves which don't involve the offense.
Yeah, basically - even if someone is a disabled, jewish, gay, black octagenarian doesn't mean they AREN'T and arsehole. And the same applies to people who aren't but act in their defence. If someone's a prick about it then after you've made a well reasonable apology then THEY should back off and express understanding. If they expect grovelling or are still snotty about it - well be snotty back. You make a genuine mistake, you correct it. if they harp on about it then no matter how much of a champion against prejudice they are - they're still an arsehole.
I expect ANGER (from the targetted groups at least) but if they decide a long diatribe is in order when no malice is intended - well, arseholery abounds all around.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-12 02:18 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-12 02:21 am (UTC)Just everything. Yes.
Political correctness = good manners. Simple as. Is that really so much to ASK? Is it really that HARD to treat people with basic respect?
And the whole concept that white middle class straight men are an oppressed group? Gods preserve us.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-12 02:21 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-12 01:13 pm (UTC)From what I've seen his apology pretty much followed your 'what you should do' list. However his biographer was on breakfast tv this morning pretty much going through your list of what not to do.
Some people still don't get it. And she forced me into agreeing with the guy from the News of the World, for which I hate her twice over.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-12 02:40 pm (UTC)Addendum: This applies to genuine ignorant mistakes. However, if you REALLY REALLY should know better then people are quite within their rights to slp upside the head.
I find it rather dubious that Prince Harry was NOT aware that term was offensive or that the use of that term was "mistaken."
His apology, though, was textbook. And the people crawling out the woodwork to DEFEND what he said are also textbook - what not to do
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-12 04:36 pm (UTC)For example, I'm having to bite my tongue on the word 'fag' which I've always used as a synonym for cigarette - because so many of my American friends do a double take when I use it. Of course they realise what I'm saying once they've processed it, but there's that momentary 'WTF? Did she really just say that?' So I think it's just better to eradicate it from my vocalulary altoghether.